Chuck Davis is the CEO of Prodege (Swagbucks, MyPoints, and Shopathome), a leading rewards discovery site. Chuck was the first President of E-Commerce for the Walt Disney Company, former CEO for ShopZilla, former CEO of Fandango, and is a former Shop.org board member.
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Episode 135 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Tuesday, June 5th, 2018.
Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, SVP Commerce & Content at SapientRazorfish, and Scot Wingo, Founder and Executive Chairman of Channel Advisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.
Jason: [0:25] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show this is episode 135 being recorded on Tuesday June 5th 2018 I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as always I'm here with your Tahoe Scott Wingo.
Scot & Chuck: [0:40] Hey Jason in welcome back Jason Scott show listeners, Jason will real fortunate to have with us this week would I consider to be one of the Statesman of digital and e-commerce truck Davis, Chuck and I overlapped on the shop.org board for a little bit there and get to know each other and we've been trying to get him on the show for a while and finally all the moons and stars aligned and where, excited to have Chuck on the show today welcome Chuck thank you I'm glad to be here thanks for having me.
Jason: [1:09] Entirely our pleasure, so usually won't have gas on I like to sort of memorize the the key digital places they've work so that I can you introduce your background of the audience but in your case that was impossible I couldn't remember all the cool places you had work.
Scot & Chuck: [1:25] Yeah I don't know about that but I am you want me to jump in on that.
[1:32] Okay well I'm 22 years in digital following a publishing career so the 22 years of digital. You know I think it's better to start off in the beginning I started at time Inc and I I was, on the life monthly magazine that was briefly alive after the weekly went out of business and it was very important part of my career because, weekly life Saturday evening post look all went out of business because they had one Revenue stream they really had two but one they gave away in that would circulation maybe they were getting $0.10 a week but they were getting a dollar a week and add Revenue, and when television came those Publications went away cuz he Advertiser switch to TV so on my first job at life, I learned there had to be two revenue streams they should be 50/50 and I went on a Sports Illustrated next. And you'll remember that from the football phones and sneaker phones and helping with Michael Jordan videos who was the first big, video purchase at the NBA at ever seen 400,000 I think on my first phone call they had to create a video to Vision the next day and then moved on a TV Guide, in Radnor Pennsylvania which was the biggest magazine in the country at the time it was 14 million circulation, and while I was there Netscape went public and all of a sudden that man it was opening day for a new industry called the internet.
[3:03] And other than AOL CompuServe in Prodigy there were no employees in this new industry so as soon as there was a browser I I had five. Offers in the internet within 90 days of. Netscape going public and I called 1 800 Gateway in ordered my first computer, I mean things were moving very fast then and and I think the logic was will Chuck and get eyeballs to a publication that no one really needs maybe he can get eyeballs to my website. So there were a bunch of startups in Northern Cal and I landed a Disney in Southern Cal to start their e-commerce and that word e-commerce had not been invented yet. So a Michael Ovitz was President he had been there 11. I was only there is present for 11 months and he says Chuck who knows if this internet thing as a fat or not but if it's a fad will find you another job of the Walt Disney Company, so I hopped on a plane went back to Radnor Pennsylvania told my wife while we could do the start up north or we could go to Southern Cal and we could. Get a job at Disney and if the internet's a fad will have another you know will still stay they'll be something else there. So that's why I started my internet 22 years ago and my first job and. Launch Disney Store we lunch Disney Travel ESPN came into the fold 6 months after I got there so I launched an ESPN store in NASCAR Store.
[4:35] Then infoseek I bought by Disney and we had all these go product I got to eat product groups and my concept was learn from a big company. And then.
[4:46] I should do that smaller company thing but when I jump off I should know more about technology so 40 years after Disney I went to bizrate which became Shopzilla. And that's where you know me from Scott because I was on the shop.org board there and that was an interesting time because the industry was building up from the o.
[5:10] Oak rash and that took a few years to build up and all of our companies of the board members were suffering at the same time. At the same time the industry was including shop.org and which was a not-for-profit that went significantly negative at that time but. What we found with bizrate after a series of cuts. Are their business started hockey sticking and it became a comparison shopping site and did really well in the ew Scripps company bought that in 05.
[5:44] For over 500 million dollars so that we were working with all the retailers we had research that helped guide the shopping decisions for the consumer to know who to trust to buy online cuz at the beginning of the internet. No one trusted. Anyone online and Dad the credit card wasn't deemed to be safe I'm not even sure if purchases online recovered at the beginning of the internet anyway after Scripps bought Shopzilla.
[6:14] I went to Fandango which was in the same building and West LA Fandango have 35 employees it was. It was kind of paused wasn't clear where it was going to go and quickly we scale back company and. Comcast bought it and I stayed on and. For another 40 years or so and that all worked out really well that was backed by tcv in Palo Alto. And I became a venture partner with tcv and I eventually found the founder Joseph Garlits of Swagbucks. And the parent company is called Protege with Addy Protege and. And Joseph and I became good friends and I became his chair Herman and. He said he wanted me to be the CEO and you never raised outside money and it was already a big company without money and I said you you don't have to have outside money you've already gone through the hardest part. And he wanted to do it and so tcv came in on that deal to that's our only investor that is the company of that today that's what we're going to talk about, so I presume we're going to talk about it a little so Protege is a reward consumer rewards platform. Where consumers have learned about 250 million dollars on the Swagbucks site and almost 550 million on the three protists.
[7:45] Dating sites in free gift cards and we do this on our site from consumer shopping. Where I'll learn a commission and I'll share that commission with the consumer who will get points and redeem those points from free gift cards from basically all the Merchants Online plus PayPal.
[8:08] Also from filling out surveys and sharing their opinion and from watching short-form videos that have ads on them. So those are three main businesses and we have 3 brand Swagbucks. Shop at home in my points the last two Brands we acquired over the last that's a couple years is that what you wanted to hear. Perfect yet I wanted to just take a little bit in the past just cuz I'm curious I'm I'm I'm a huge user of Fandango. Tulsa Lil Bit about that stint in. I love the little ad with the paper bag people just that was that created during your tenure it was but let me tell you the best story for Fandango so I started there as chairman. And I was chairman of Shopzilla and they were same building as take the elevator up and down, I was facing myself out of one company and phasing myself into the next company and about 1/2 year later I became the CEO and on my, first day is a CEO again we only have 35 employees at Fandango but a couple guys fat me down. Are they came to my office to Tech Guys and they go Chuck they're only like 5 of us who write code and we just and we know you have lots of things you want to test. But we also know that we need you to know that we're also here part-time really because we're working on a secret project with Apple. And I go well I don't understand am I paying For You full time but I'm getting you half time and they go that is correct and I go on that quite sure.
[9:43] This is a good idea is it a good ideas it's a good project you're working on does Fandango benefit from this they go what we're not quite sure and.
[9:53] And I said was it a bad project cuz I'll get our lawyer and I'll get you out of this and they go well we're not quite sure about that either now pause that thought for six months so that was July of 06 January of 07. My Blackberry is is vibrating so much. I figured someone was calling me and there was no one on the phone it was I was getting so many bbm's remember that that was a text message before we had text and and. They were saying Chuck turn on.
[10:27] Turn on CNBC Steve Jobs is presenting at macworld he's showing this new product called an iPhone and he's buying movie tickets on Fandango. Tell my team built the first app for the first iPhone and a CEO I didn't even know it was coming that's how secretive apple apple is and that did help Propel Fandango new excited we're all using very much.
[10:54] Is it also in your background you did a stint kind of with TCB which stands for tech technology crossover Ventures they're one of the story to VC firms out there in the Bay Area and I know that they are involved in your current company, are you still active with those guys so what's that relationship like. PCV is a great company and has great funds and I've known them for a long time I was fortunate enough to Jay Hogue found me he was on the board of Fandango and brought me in, to be his partner on that. And then that Pat a happy outcome and and then afterwards he asked if I would be a venture partner with tcv that helps sit in sourcing deals and coaching current Founders Inn, and just helping in the industry it did Girardi are all around and having someone on the inside is in a bad thing to do having a great. Growth Equity company like tcv has been fabulous for me, we brought them into Protege and they are the only investor in this company so I'm thrilled Jay Hogue and and. Maiorano board were thrilled to have them both and it's been a great relationship both ways. Well Jason I know is chomping at the bit to talk loyalty so I'll turn it over to him on that side.
Jason: [12:20] Scot is fascinating and.
[12:26] But you just got matching loyalty but I'm not sure why I think of Swagbucks first and foremost as a loyalty program right like you're you're really.
[12:35] A traffic generation program for for a retail site right like you I would partner with you. Predominantly to get more new Shoppers to my site that that are already cut in the Swagbucks a ecosystem do I do I have that right.
Scot & Chuck: [12:52] That is right and that's not dissimilar from what you know from my days at bizrate Shopzilla that there's a lot of lead generation that that comes from our shopping channel we. Transacted or LED two transactions of over 500 million dollars last year in our shop Channel.
Jason: [13:16] Wow that's that's awesome and when I think about that like traffic jam versus loyalty like you know most people in they say loyalty they think of this traditional. Sir points for purchase program and in the hope is. You know if I get a bunch of points with Best Buy that that's going to let you know Anchorage people to want to use those points at Best Buy so that you know Best Buy will keep keep that customer loyal and it.
[13:41] Like there's a lot of talk in the industry like these days there's a lot of fatigue with those kind of programs because. Consumers have so many are members of so many of these different programs that that none of them necessarily Drive loyalty but in your case. They're those customers are building value that they can use anywhere they want right so that it doesn't have that same fatigue Dynamic that. A Retailer's branded Welty program might have.
Scot & Chuck: [14:09] One of the highlights of our whole platform is we have a horizontal platform versus a vertical so not only can you shop. Are any of the e-commerce sites out there but you can fill out surveys and watch videos and earn points from that. And redeem those points for shopping at your favorite retailers too so I think you have to look at it like an ecosystem. That everyone put something in a wreath, Taylor gets listed here they wait to see which customers come points are earned those points are usually redeemed to go back to that same retail or sometimes I'll go to other retailers. In the end everyone's happy cuz everyone's getting a good mix of incremental orders.
Jason: [14:59] That that makes total sense and I I feel like even when we were looking at single retailer Affinity programs.
[15:06] Like one of the characteristics of the best ones is they always.
[15:10] Rewarded orange insanitized behaviors in addition to shopping so you might get you no points for buying but you might also get points for you know being a loyal.
[15:20] Customer and wearing their clothes out in public and sharing them on Instagram or introducing new customers to the brand or things like that ends in so it feels like Swagbucks has many of those same, same characteristics and I'm assuming behind-the-scenes that that means like to other constituencies you have RR.
[15:39] Clients that want to do market research and are willing to pay.
[15:42] To get your your user base to answer those surveys and and clients that want to find eyeballs for their advertisements and are willing to pay to have have your your users watch those videos is that is that right I do swear to have.
[15:55] Three can sit you and seizes its customers the retailers the the the researchers in the advertisers.
Scot & Chuck: [16:03] We have at least three we we.
[16:07] Transactive it on 25 million surveys last year and we had six billion video views so those areas are very large also but we also have, just your run-of-the-mill everyday search powered by Yahoo on our site. So when you do a search result every end sample you got a reward for that also we also have games on our site on channel in our play area.
[16:36] So yeah there are many ways to earn what I think separates us from other sites that might only work on shopping is where a fun place to go. You you're going to be surprised with something new everyday. And we take a lot of pride in that we want to be fun we want to be rewarding we wanted to be a place you want to go and you want to be rewarded for your time. Your engagement is worth something and we want to make sure you get rewarded for it.
Jason: [17:06] That that makes perfect sense it now I think I understand hopefully the listeners understand the ecosystem you know I'm always curious to ask all the entrepreneurs on the show is how do you get. What is your customer acquisition strategy how do you get customers into that echo system for the first time.
Scot & Chuck: [17:26] And one of the unique things we do is we've got a referral program or a member can introduce another member. And we will give the introducer 10% of the points from their friend for life.
[17:43] So if I introduce you and you start playing and then shopping and filling out surveys and watching videos and you earn points. The company is going to give me 10% on top of what you earned as a reward for life. For that introduction I made so there's almost a buddy system built in, where I'm going to keep track of you and let you know of new areas that I liked on the site and vice-versa you're going to close that loop with me and tell me tell me how much fun you had and how much you learned in the past month.
[18:17] So that's one way we bring people in another really Innovative way.
[18:22] That is fairly new is we launched a trivia app called swag IQ and this is. This was created I'd say in March April and we get. Tens of thousands of people coming on every day 8 p.m. eastern Time 5 p.m. Pacific and we have a 10 question game and what's unique about Swagbucks. Is we have our own currency is called SB and one point equals one penny it's $0.01. So we can give points out or sbe's out every time you got a question correct on our 10-question nightly trivia game. You don't have to just be the grand prize winner to win $2,500 or whatever that days for word is you're getting rewards all along the way and that has a strong following that. Introduces people to our currency who then come to the site to shop. Fill out surveys and share their opinions watch videos and search through Yahoo so it's all related so yeah we've got interesting lead-gen. Opportunities and an execution across our platform. Brickell and this is interesting to on the last episode that Jason I had we are going to the Mary Meeker deck and she had a section about China and you're a big thing in China right now is this intersection of kind of shopping and entertainment it sounds like you guys are.
[19:58] We're kind of bringing some of that to the US any other interesting kind of, bottles you seen at that intersection especially on the how do you how do you bring entertainment into the e-commerce and shopping piece. You know you brought up that's by the other the other question ago and we did a whole swag IQ episode last week. That had to do with that spy that Best Buy had an electronic circular. On our site of different promotions going on in their in their store, and we had an entire game to tie in Best Buy two to the survey rewarding our customers for, for looking at the circular and getting familiar with the different specials going on in the store so there's many new innovative ways to cross-promote e-commerce, to cross-promote customer acquisition and to be engaged in a fun way. It's interesting at a theoretical level because you know we're as consumers were giving our quote-unquote R-value away for free till I use social media companies and you guys are kind of. Actually paying for it which is you know which is interesting because you you're obviously seeing you know the the government come in and got, a look at what's happening there and in a lot of consumers are upset they didn't realize what they're giving away and you know how much how much is kind of going along with that data where is you guys are making a much more clear kind of value proposition I think.
[21:36] Well we like to think so too but the real. The real rubber meets the road moment is when we have a live screen in our lobby of our office here in El Segundo which is by. LAX to the Los Angeles airport and our lives screen shows.
[21:56] Depiction of the United States and shows who's redeeming a card in which city at that moment for which retailer and how much money it is. Do we have done something like this at Fandango or people are buying movie tickets but what this does is it shows the total number of cards card value it's been redeemed since Inception. And when I came in this morning we were at 541 million dollars of cards that have been redeemed, and just watching that grow everyday is a heck of a lot more fun than seeing the billboard in Times Square showing how many people have died of cancer or in the more current way. What the national debt is per person in the US, this is fun people like earning rewards and the rewards just power the whole system of e-commerce, cool it was switch gears a little bit when we talk to retailers a lot of them have kind of had their quote on quote mobile moment which means more than half the traffic's kind of coming from mobile and Buy Mobile I mean smartphones imagine with an interactive platform like yours you you kind of crossed over that, how many books are in writing to you guys to the extent you can disclose things through mobile vs. desktop and any other interesting mobiletrans you guys are seen.
[23:15] You know we've got very different channels on our sites as some work better on mobile than a mother's friend since the video channel called watch. Watching videos remotely like that or odor or in a mobile way is very good but a lot of people like that stop to so-so for surveys or answer channel does very well on mobile.
[23:43] People get to see me, get a bigger picture online on the desktop so it's the same thing with e-commerce some things can be transacted quickly on mobile and others are better on desktop so I can't give you numbers but I can tell you that. Many fat most consumers migrate back and forth and were there in all areas.
[24:07] The swag IQ game is is it mobile. Is basically a mobile game and that allows me to play anywhere I couldn't play last night we had two games last night I played the first game and made it to the 8th question before I got tripped up. I think it was a nice I got ripped out that was the furthest I'd ever gotten and we had a second Flash game 45 minutes later and I. I want to make sure I didn't have a car accidents I had that running in the car on the way home but I did not play it to dangerous but I'm at least able to hear it and hear the question.
Jason: [24:44] Yeah I almost want to suggest that you use the GPS to disable the the the trivia game win when the phone is moving it auto speeds.
Scot & Chuck: [24:56] You just log off I do just log off so I can focus on the road in California that's an important thing.
Jason: [25:03] Yeah for sure and are you finding like so I like a lot of.
[25:07] That the activities you have are sort of endemically mobilelite what is you mentioned are you finding that that's primarily the. The platform that new customers are coming into on like the majority of the new customer acquisition on the mobile platform is that growing faster for you than the the desktop.
Scot & Chuck: [25:28] Now that's a good question and you could steer what users you get if your sophisticated in your in your customer acquisition efforts you can buy for Kate, your mobile customer acquisition efforts and give them a mobile experience and your desktop, customer acquisition efforts and give them a desktop experience and the N acknowledge that there's going to be migration across the two, but the primary way that someone comes in it's probably a good predictor and the economics as you know are different from Mobile in four. stop so I can just tell you that we play in both and we mark it to both and we get organic from both. And I think it's important to keep track of.
[26:16] And obviously the mobile metrics for this industry let alone my company have are getting better all the time the screen is definitely smaller. So so it's it sometimes harder to get the message for a partner so that's part of the. Constructive tension that is there between what the consumer wants and what the partner wants, because they might want for Real Estate so all of that is a constructive tension and we make sure we have great products and both.
Jason: [26:54] Yeah and that gives like a common challenge that the guests are seeing is you know.
[27:01] Increasing percentage of their other user bases are are becoming predominantly mobile.
[27:07] Which generally good thing you know people certainly happy happy to see that but.
[27:13] It it does feel like in most cases it's slightly harder to monetize that mobile traffic so for eCommerce sites like the conversion rate in the HOV from mobile devices tends to be lower than desktop and as you mentioned in that in the advertising platforms there's just less.
[27:28] Less pixels that can be ads and so you know it's time for us to monetize I think Mary Meeker in her deck even highlights that like.
[27:37] The the one kind of advertising that sort of wagging consumer.
[27:43] Eyeballs is mobile that there's sort of a gap between you know how many consumers are moving to Mobile and how many advertisers are moving a mobile site after I got the challenge we all have two faces. More bar users becoming more mobile and it being slightly harder to monetize those mobile users.
Scot & Chuck: [27:59] Yeah it might be harder to monetize but I'm just speaking as a general industry trend, and but the retention or the time spent, on mobile is probably more so if you go back to the metric from early days in the internet of pageviews so I know is somebody irrelevant now that would be Alien video but time spent.
[28:23] Could be more on mobile so if you're making less. In your example of advertising per page view you're getting many more page views.
[28:34] On mobile because the customer likes the likes operating that way right it's their favorite way so. So I think in total.
[28:46] The companies can make more money on mobile just for more usage even though they're making less per, moment were / transactor / / screen. Or Percy p.m. from something that is on a smaller pixelization.
Jason: [29:08] Yeah I know that's a that's a great point because you know I think the worldwide Trend there's already more mobile more minutes being. More digital minutes are on mobile devices than on desktop devices and of course that's only going to grow because you got that mobile screen with you.
[29:25] 24 hours a day and all those other screens are with you can serve we left so I that I got I think that's a great point I want to change.
[29:33] Slightly to the topic of personalization because it strikes me, you guys get a very detailed view of your users over time so you see a lot of their shopping behavior and what their individual purchases are but you also see a lot of these other consumer Behavior you know when they're when they're using your games when they're watching your videos when they're taking your surveys all those sorts of things, that seems like a super valuable source of consumer Insight do you use that too. Change to the customer experience at all I might like will the the offers that I see when I come to your site be personalized based on my past Behavior or is that something you're thinking about.
Scot & Chuck: [30:13] Certainly we know what people like and don't like, and where they tend to spend more time and there are many ways where we use that information to give a better experience to the consumer but we've got a long way to go. We've got a long way to go and most of our customers. I like bouncing around and and engaging in different channels on our on our site so. So that makes it in the increasing challenge because should I be showing you more sites to shop on that I think you would like or. Have I noticed you fill out a survey 2 days a week and I want to show you we've got. Some surveys I might be right up your alley based on the consumer products you've you've answered before so there's a real estate play. As there always has been and how much should be personalized horses how much is standard or that day's daily promo. That's an inherent tension that I think is healthy within an organization you might have some partner who needs. Need something, blast it out to as many people as possible in a day and then the question is do you show that to someone in it and have it override personalization and many times it does so, I don't want you to think that the whole world is fully personalized yet there's a lot of data we could help.
[31:47] Give it a better experience but it hasn't taken fully over where where everything gets down to that level, Brickell describes what you feel this ecosystem and it's kind of has elements of a Marketplace as well and we kind of started Market places with traditional Market, places like the eBay marketplace now we have coyotes hybrids with Amazon which is retailer with a third-party Marketplace and then even you can Skype I think of uber and Airbnb is a Marketplace when I talk to people, adult marketplaces one of the interesting challenges is it's almost like buying your building 2, two businesses simultaneously and getting that right on the supply side of the demand side can be tricky is that been a challenge for you guys how do you guys think you think about yourself as a Marketplace. Well certainly I've I've been in Marketplace environments before cuz bizrate Shopzilla was a Marketplace and. And we have elements of that heater to where we do need to make sure demand and Supply can be evenly met as much as possible but. I will tell you this I've enjoyed being in businesses that don't have warehouses. I got nothing against warehouses I work with lots of companies that have them but the marketplace business, helps me focus on what I think we're good with and what we're good with his matching up the right consumer with the right products to be shopping for or or seeing on our site.
[33:28] And therefore I don't have to worry as much about the distribution or the logistics of a warehouse nothing against that it's just, to your point a Marketplace still is very different it's getting the right traffic to the right place to meet the right demand.
[33:47] What's what's the most surprising thing you guys have experienced as you maybe a product you would have never thought would be popular or any any interesting consumer insights you can share.
[34:00] Well there a lot of deals that come on that do really well we have charity deals at do well or you could sponsor a different. Different things there we saw a lot of razors. Write Dollar Shave has been a nice partner of hours and and we're happy to see that that's always a lively one I think the the one of the pleasant surprises has been. The Innovation to keep coming one thing I've learned is you can't be static in any business for long. You know we're in jog here businesses so they change so quickly so if someone on my team as a great idea. Will often let them try it.
[34:49] So that's how we launched swag IQ 3 months ago someone wanted to do trivia game we have our own spin on it we have our hose to come in in the afternoon now we're getting in the theme. Games we had a baseball game a couple nights ago for the first day of the NBA playoffs NBA Finals we had an NBA Finals trivia game which was pretty interesting and and. We will just keep growing we will keep innovating we will keep coming up with new areas are consumers tell us what they want to see they posted on Facebook they tell us directly.
[35:28] The employees here, tell me what they want we use an outside firm to to capture all of the employee ideas and we review the Mineral Company meetings each quarter and I'd say close to half of them we end up unimplemented. So and if we don't get enough. We wonder why everyone has been submitted one per quarter cuz there's always things that could be better and having that philosophy I think is very important and having the openness to just keep trying keep. Keep tinkering keep launching new things while scaling and sticking to your mission and making sure you're true to it.
Jason: [36:09] Very cool.
[36:11] You know Chuck one of the things we always want to make sure we take advantage of when we have someone that that has a deep digital experience like yourself is kind of get your view of where you think it's all going like, do you do you have a clear idea what you think the future of e-commerce is or what what you know some of the big big trends.
[36:31] To think about now are for the next 3 to 5 years.
Scot & Chuck: [36:35] I think it's hard I think it's hard to really 10 it because it changes so often like I never knew scooters were going to be so big and in the last month I've learned that.
[36:46] Bird the chest when just raise the rent, had a billion dollar valuation its 13th month and and things like that that are just out on the sidewalks of Santa Monica had no idea that these businesses got so big, so they're going to be a lot of new things that come up that none of us have ever thought of and I would say.
[37:13] I backed the question up a different way if you were 22 and getting out of college today I would recommend if you were my kid you make sure you get into something. Along this digital Revolution this is a time where. Brick-and-mortar has been laid but we have no idea how tall this building is going to be or how wide it's going to be or where it's going and you want to be there to be in this industry to live it breathe it. And have a great journey cuz it is one fun way to go and it wasn't always this way in Prior Generations the grew up in. Went to factories in and lived in the world wasn't changing as quickly as it is today.
Jason: [38:00] Chuck that is terrific advice and that's going to be a great place to leave it for this week because once again we've used up all our a lot of time but if folks have questions for for chukar want to learn more about Swagbucks, will will make sure we include that the company information in the show notes and will continue dialogue about the show on her Facebook page so you're welcome to go there if you have questions and as always if you enjoyed this episode we sure would appreciate that, five star review on iTunes.
Scot & Chuck: [38:29] Chuck thanks for joining us if people are are you a Twitter or LinkedIn her or is there a certain way if you have business. You put them out there I think it's probably the best way to find me. Do you want to do that Chuck Davis protege. P r o d e g really really appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to share your thoughts with us and hope you have a great day.
[38:57] Thank you guys thank Scott and Jason.
Jason: [38:59] Until next time happy commercing.