EP184 - Tapestry CDO Noam Paransky
Noam Paransky is the Chief Digital Officer at Tapestry, the parent company of Coach, Kate Spade, and Stuart Weitzman. In this broad ranging interview we discuss Tapestry's vision for a Global Digital Experience, some of the challenges with global localization, organization structures for a house of brands, and the future of commerce.
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Episode 184 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Tuesday, August 20th, 2019. live from the eTail East trade show in Boston, MA.
Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.
Automated Transcription of the show
Jason: [0:24] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show this episode is being recorded live from the etail East trade show in Boston on Tuesday August 20th, 2019 I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and unfortunately Scott wasn't able to join us today so I'm solo we're going to make up for it with a great guest joining us this morning is known bransky he's the chief digital officer at tapestry regular listeners will likely remember the tapestries the parent company for Coach Kate Spade and Stuart Weitzman welcome to the show no. We are thrilled to have you I mentioned in the in the intro that tapestry is sort of the House of Brands and I know you're relatively new to the real can you come and talk a little bit about how that sort of evolution from coach to the tapestry evolved and what the thought process behind that. Noam: [1:18] Absolutely so, tapestry is obviously the holding company for family of Brands the idea of building a luxury brand holding company has the vision of our CEO of Victor Luis, who I report in to as. Coach first bought Stuart Weitzman and then is the Kate Spade brand was integrated into the portfolio, wanted to have a name the conveyed the the aspirations of our company. And ultimately you know we we describe tapestry is a new york-based house of modern luxury lifestyle brands in our ethos is really focused, on luxury being inclusive in its nature. Jason: [2:07] That's awesome and I'm always fascinated by the chief digital officer role I found there's a fair amount of diversity and sort of the scope and approach should I just be curious what what is a CDO do at tapestry. Noam: [2:22] Certainly there are many different ways to tackle the role of the digital leader in Enterprise. Designed a few organizations as a relates to to digital and in how to approach it and, fundamentally if you are a single brand entity versus a portfolio entity there are some different considerations in terms of thinking about the role of the organizational structure, Etc, specifically with tapestry we're trying to build a global scale digital capability because ultimately tapestry is a platform so our visual activities at the Enterprise level should be building a digital platform people processing technology, ultimately the end of them responsible for all things digital in the Enterprise, but there is a web of ran digital leaders and then centers of excellence that we're building the crate that scale platform so. Fundamentally about being a team captain and making all of these things sing together creating scale and leverage brand Independence integrating those things to create the Desire X team approach and outcome. Jason: [3:30] Got you and I'm always curious in a house of Brands there's kind of the State versus Federal right side sometimes a CDO is like a center of expertise that the the brands can use, sort of at their discretion and other times did you lose more federalized in this video is like putting guide rails in place that all the brands of my respected Apollo is there like. Eyewear in the spectrum is tapestry. Noam: [3:56] Will potentially somewhere in between or altimate lie in the midst of our journey of really articulating at a detail level exactly how everything is going to work as a as in four months in and we're building this Outlet. My view is at the Tactical level there's more sameness than different so how we think about our Tech stack, wireframes General experiences within the guardrails of what the capability is gets built at the Enterprise level, the brands are ultimately masters of their own destiny in terms of the stories they're going to tell the assets that they build to create those emotional connections and we try to make sure that basically at the Enterprise Al will do plumbing that we, develop the tactics excetera. Allow that amplification to occur and we're learning across the family of Brands so is something is working for someone else we can I take that and we can make it back to another bread hey you guys should try this of course it's going to be their voice their content, their DNA but ultimately the journeys that we can build in the successes that we can have can be pretty Universal as we as we approach them. Jason: [5:01] That's why it makes sense and you mentioned you're new to tapestry but you're not new to this kind of role can you talk to us a little bit about your background and how you came to the role. Noam: [5:10] So my last role was very similar role with The Gap Bank portfolio Brands Gap a very mature and her prize platform, I had had a universal shared shopping carts and something like 2004-2006 up the the platform the tech stock was already, integrated as I enter that role so that role is more about you know organizational I meant and you know evolution, I'm versus building scale Center of Excellence so here it's, or a new is a portfolio only two years old and name as is tapestry so taking learnings from that rule adjusting and then applying them to the role here and then before I was it, Gap and cannot rule out as a consultant for almost two decades doing digital transformation type work. Jason: [6:00] Got your listeners can't see the disdain on your face when you said consultant. Noam: [6:05] Cuz I cuz I was looking at you. Jason: [6:07] I know I didn't take that personally I told her appreciate that like well hopefully it gives me hope that my career will eventually take a better turn so. Noam: [6:14] You can always home. Jason: [6:15] Exactly it's important to have dreams of nothing else and I feel like that that Circa 2005 Gap Inc website is permanently ingrained in my brain because like in that year, every client was you know having this debate Universal card, separate sides and you guys were sort of the gold standard for having integrated that Universal part so I your your side. Noam: [6:39] I can't I can't take credit for that for that decision but it was it was very wise for that portfolio at that time. Jason: [6:45] Yeah but it is funny it's it's I feel like everybody is in a different situation you have at the moment 3 luxury brands in the portfolio but, they they do have pretty different value props and I presume sort of core customer targets. Noam: [7:04] Did you occupy distinctly different space, so in terms of thinking about the evolution of the platform and potential points of integration you certainly have to take that into account versus the very clear shared space that was occupied in my house roll. Jason: [7:21] So obviously you came here today mainly to be on the podcast but as a. Noam: [7:27] Without question. Jason: [7:28] Yeah but you are super nice guy so you did agree to also do a keynote at that you tell. Noam: [7:33] Absolutely I'm just I'm just here to give. Jason: [7:35] Yeah you are a giver and I I just got to catch that Keno but the title was reimagining the global digital experience which it sounds super simple. Noam: [7:45] Very simple yeah it's a small world. Jason: [7:47] One sentence clean out your drop the mic and walk out and for people that were unlucky enough not to make it like Kenny I like what was your high-level POV what were you guys talking about. Noam: [7:57] A lot of it was, if I'm really what I wanted to convey the audience is just to share how they knew in this role how I think about a portfolio of Brands and how to, tackle building capabilities and so for me it goes back to this how do you create, a scalable Global platform people process technology I think, in our industry but especially to the piers that we work within the other functional areas you say digital and they think two things right off the bat website and Technology. And of course digital has become so much more than the website and it's getting more and more disaggregated across, and touch points all over the globe but he then no social climber social activity and, and how that's kind of the first point of ideation and inspiration yes ultimately all the way down to the website and also into the store but it's much more the website and it's much more than technology it's the people in the process and then yes the technology all those things need to work together so there's a lot about just articulating to the audience, how I was thinking through those elements and hopefully they could get a sense for how they could Advocate and their organizations to balance those things out to advocate for what digital can be and should be and how to integrate, the rest of the organization at large into those activities. Jason: [9:22] Yeah and it is funny because I'm a hundred percent agree it's super common mistake that when people think about it they. You go right to the lowest common denominator and the technical bits and bytes in the platforms and. Sure those are important but so often the success and failure is much more predicated on the experiences you create with those platforms and I would argue the hardest part of all of this is the organizational platform and getting the sort of the alignment and governance and getting like all the talented people in an organization running in the same direction instead of different directions. Noam: [9:59] I think that's the challenge of leadership across any discipline ultimately bringing digital experiences the life are very, cross-functional cross-discipline is kind of where the rubber meets the road for all of these things it's it's the kind of first place that they converge and therefore was a very complex dance needs to occur to execute that, successfully night and I think that's a lot of what's missing in today's retail environment is bringing all the disparate pieces and ideation and, objectives of the organization distilling that down in the kind of clear experiential and functional swimlanes that then be executed against. Jason: [10:38] And doing all that for a single brand is difficult. You know I give you your blue belt save that if you can, even just get that alignment in a single go for a single brand when you had multiple Brands and different stakeholders with you know they're starting from different povs. I getting their skills like that brown belt and then we have to do a global issue and so many different markets have different sensibilities and. Structure and experiences in us may be very different than what the right structure and experiences in China for example. I'm so pretty good luxury one of the things I find fascinating I want to put words in your mouth but. The majority of luxury brands in the US are not super excited about. Trying to sell through a platform like Amazon for example in your silent me nodding. Noam: [11:30] No comment. Jason: [11:31] Like obviously every whether you want to or not every brand, has Amazon there's lots of interesting conversations about that but the majority of luxury brand so far have made the decision that it's it's not brand additive to be on a you know everything type store. And like obviously we've seen your brands. I continue to invest in their own digital properties in in my sense is that why you sell through wholesale the majority of of tapestry sale. Noam: [12:00] House Majority is correct. Jason: [12:02] Direct-to-consumer through both your own retail stores and your digital properties so now you get on the plane fly to China. Noam: [12:10] Awesome awesome. Jason: [12:12] Sorry you have to I actually think it's super cool it like yeah but one of the things that super fascinating to me about China is. Owned properties are important in you have to invest in them it's extraordinary difficult to conduct transactions in high-volume on your own properties in the the consumers are just been habitual. Does the team all marketplaces in the JD's the world. Noam: [12:36] Yes that is the prevailing consumer Behavior. Jason: [12:39] Exactly so even a luxury brand generally has to have a T-Mobile store and you but you know what I I'm assuming you guys do as well. Noam: [12:48] We do is Stuart Weitzman our other two Brands currently are not Auntie mail but that is that is where the consumer is transacting digitally at scale in China without question. Jason: [13:00] And one of the like obviously that's Ali Baba's benefit one of the things that's really interesting to me you'll get a big Market Place in the US and all of that product, is still indexed on Google so even if the the consumer starts of Journey on Google if that product exists on Amazon they're going to find it on Google and Amazon is likely to win the sco when it's going to snow. Noam: [13:21] There's a lot of forks in that road and I question. Jason: [13:23] The Amazon specifically doesn't allow their their pages to be indexed by bat out so it actually. Almost makes it it's a huge disincentive to start a product search on the search engine in China like even more so than the US. Consumers just go to Team all the start that search because that's the product catalog of done if you will. Noam: [13:46] Yeah I mean the journeys are familiar different in China on. Many many layers the percent of Journey starting in search where they ultimately end up is certainly one of them there's also a big difference for between team on Amazon in terms of customer data sharing, very very different approaches between T-Mobile and Amazon so built the whole digital landscape there is very different both in terms of where she transaction China what her journey looks like, and ultimately the the Platforms in general are quite different whether it's the $0.10, platforms whether it's team all-weather is Little Red Book there's a whole different ecosystem in China so as we think about China we at we announced and teased are trying to next round of June our last earnings call and that's really going to be an effort. To invest in local China ecosystems and teams to. Adapt in leverage the ecosystem that's in China and then plug into our Global ecosystem where that's appropriate self there to be certain activities that need to be done on a on a local basis and things like, content that we want to leverage globally and frankly bi-directionally so that we're creating content China and we're lovers and other markets and vice-versa but creating those points of integration but also the regional differentiation that China requires, and not focus. Jason: [15:08] If that wasn't complicated enough one of the interesting Dynamics there so many cities at such ridiculous scale that people don't even understand here. Noam: [15:19] Is there a funk of forty or cities that are bigger than Boston that. Most of the people are in the room today have never heard I would I would bet any amount of money that that's the case so that the size of the cities in China the rate of growth the speed at which the revolving as is quite breathtaking. Jason: [15:34] Yeah it is amazing and it is but it does create this interesting challenge does Tier 1 and tier 2 cities have pretty robust retail infrastructures and so you you can tackle luxury by opening, gray brick and mortar and having this amazing high-touch experience that the the tier-1 City Chinese consumer like has mostly come to it, for luxury go to that chair for City when your point is still bigger than Boston and there may not be that brick and mortar retail infrastructure and so my sense is a lot of brands are thinking. It's simply not going to be possible to scale brick and mortar to all of those cities and so in some cases we're going to have to LeapFrog. The in-store experience and served as customers with a new digital Ledger experience that like frankly I'm not sure anyone's perfectly invented yet. Noam: [16:25] Now I mean there are a number of challenges and opportunities so as we think about our business China represents, first the coach brand China has tremendous awareness and brand equity and said it's an amazing business to be a part of them to work with. And we're looking to provide that same kind of scale to other two brands in China but, I think what you just described represents the opportunity that is China so while there are the issues of what is the retail footprint look like over time how does that start to mature at the same time, you can kind of say there's a certain destiny, to that because ultimately the infrastructure will propagate these are millions and millions and millions of people in these cities who aren't serve bye-bye luxury malls. [17:05] Then there's the transactional piso is our objective in 3rd or 4th tier cities to, transact was it to build the brand awareness and desire ultimately a lot of those people are coming into first and second-tier cities, is Taurus and so they can purchase in those cities but just even though ensure that are brand awareness and desires propagating into those markets bills that future Equity as the infrastructure of olives and then of course transacting digitally as possible. Ultimately when people are spending that kind of amount of money, in any country let alone China for that kind of product that there's that desire to look see feel touch and experience that kind of immersive 360-degree experience inclusive of the stores and sell those things have to get into a sink, overtime but will continue to extend our own properties into China will value 8 Partnerships with others but ultimately I think the number one objective is to to penetrate without awareness into those in a 3rd and 4th tier cities and make sure that were, one of the top brands in consideration for that consumer as the infrastructure develops out and as they come into first and second-tier cities to visit in the shop. Jason: [18:18] You said it perfectly articulated one of the tensions that I think is really interesting and luxury customer experiences. Utility inconvenience versus sort of experience and engagement, it's over 4 years and you asked like the gold standard for customer experience in retail was our friends at Nordstrom you know that the staff is famously and able to do anything necessary to serve the customer in 4 years they scored the highest in any way you would measure customer experience or satisfaction. But in the modern era it's kind of funny or modern I should currently some was going to give us into this in five years and laughing at us going that's the mall. Noam: [19:05] For sure. Jason: [19:07] Today Amazon actually scores higher in a lot of the customer satisfaction in the X's then Nordstrom and they're obviously not doing it by, doing that concierge high-touch bespoke experience better than Nordstrom but what has happened is they, change the dimension and they've made a low-friction inconvenience and speed the things that. Customers value right in luxury like I don't think the customer has shifted that they don't care about that sort of Engagement and bespoke experience but I think there are occasions in touch points when that low friction. Convenience is super important even for luxury brand and their other occasions when that high engagement is super important and I wonder like how you think about. Sort of balancing those two things in Franklin even understanding what the consumer wants at any given moment so you can sort of deliver on that. Noam: [20:07] That's the age-old retail challenges give the customer what they want and sell a lot of what we think about what we focus on is, how do we how do we get to some ground truth about that, in terms of the the MPS of say one retailer against another at least in in my travels would have seen is the demands are different, so if your replenishing toothpaste, what will get a high mtscores fundamentally different than you know that's $1,000 drafts or handbag the expectations are fundamentally different the dimensions are fundamentally different even if it's the same consumer, and then across different customer cohorts you have, just different frames of reference it's the same reason that I'm like I TripAdvisor a 3-star hotel might be the top-ranked but surely on a like-for-like basis if the room was $1 they wouldn't get the same score there's the context of the. The price and value so is released to Amazon compared to someone else there's a lot of Dimensions to to consider but I think for us. [21:08] Where we where the customer wants to be frictionless of course we want to be more fresh unless where the customer wants to be educated or have some more ceremony around the transaction we need to provide that as well, and ultimately this is we aspire to have this kind of Lifetime engagement with the consumer of course everyone talks about lifetime value but. When you're a luxury brand you're playing as a very long game around being, consistent with high-quality and backing it up with service for perpetuity and that's in that's what really separates, a luxury brand from a brand that's native from or transactional because ultimately that it's it's the power of time the crates that permanence in that true brand value and that's the stewardship that were responsible for, for me within a set of capabilities that then prop up the brands and their day-to-day activities to allow that, two occurring continue to evolve against the changing consumer landscape but that's that's the reality the difference between like the ultra Ultra frictionless environment you would see. Does someone like a value retailer on Amazon is really trying to play in and then in the luxury space we are trying to provide but consumers perceptions of luxury will evolve, it will need to evolve to a certain extent to meet the customer were there at while providing that longitudinal stewardship of Our Brands. Jason: [22:31] And I'm sure it's a small cohort but I have to imagine your favorite cohort are the people that buy thousand-dollar handbags with the amount of consideration that they bite toothpaste. Noam: [22:40] Without question yeah we're at work we're fine with that but it but at the end of day even if we get the transaction like-for-like. Yeah we want to ensure that that transaction comes with that emotional attachment that. That that aligns with that lifetime value cuz sure it's great to have the thousand-dollar hand-eye but we do want, their next and I was he want to sell him some ready we're at we want to sell him some shoes and so ultimately we just want to make sure that they feel, really good about the purchase and they have this Affinity to the brand that they connect to this great experience great product excetera so even if yeah we could get many one second one and done purchases ultimately, our responsibility is to create that deeper level of Engagement. Jason: [23:29] Luxury was a little late to the digital game for a long time and that you know some of the luxury houses were sort of famous for our brand is built in the dressing room not on the web page and while I understand that sentiment I feel like, consumer behavior is necessitating that luxury does figure out digital and I think we are starting to see. More segments of luxury Shoppers that use digital at least as a part of their shopping Journey or their primary shopping Journey. Is there any examples out there that you think I should have best-in-class of recreating that brand engagement that that you would traditionally have in a great store on a digital property like what is the analogous experience. Noam: [24:17] I don't think I've truly seen that yet I mean I think for starters the statement that luxury is kind of late to the game II think that's technically and tactically, accurate I think the interesting piece that is hard I think for us digital professionals to absorb. Is that the traditional luxury houses have had a tremendous run over the past five or 10 years despite the fact that they didn't, have these big investments in digital and that just highlights that first and foremost it's a Brandon product game, and so if you have what people desire and I think if you look at say a Nike as an example if you have something that people desire enough they will go to the most friction Laden experience possible like lining up around the street corner overnight, to get their hands on that products so first and foremost and I'm part of why I came to tapestries I wanted to come to a company that was really focused on product. Because it starts with great product is a digital practitioner I can't I can't sell, digital right is IT consulting I guess I can sell digital in-house is a leader I cancel digital digital has to be a supporting element, and if you don't have product that people desire it doesn't matter how frictionless or how inspiring your digital experiences that the dots are connecting goes back to the, team sport stuff that we were talking about before so luxurious Gwen quit late to the game but are the masters of maintaining and building brands for you know sometimes decades and creating that product designer and inspiration. [25:46] So being in the space I want to take the connective tissue of that piece and build a great visual platform the connect that into and I think that that was damaged us as we hopefully continue to build our portfolio over the years so that's that's what I think is super intriguing about this proposition in the in the luxury game but I think it also highlights that, digital isn't always as important as this digital practitioners would like to thank it's got to be connecting into a greater healthier. Jason: [26:16] No I I told a green item I didn't mean to imply that what genus are who have two Bunch on the table by not moving earlier. Noam: [26:24] Well maybe maybe it did but man I mean you know some of the players that done tremendously. Jason: [26:28] Yeah and for your point. Having a product and having that mindshare with the customers ultimately and a much more valuable resource than being good at Digital Light in back. Even argue we're going to an interesting phase right now we're a bunch of, people that I would characterize as good digital, practitioners including some places you've words are struggling at the moment there are some some of the the best most successful retailers in the space, are not necessarily particular good a digital so I absolutely don't think there is a pure, correlation between being great at digital and being an economic success it's, it's one element of that overall customer experience and while I can my day job I like to talk it out of the lot it absolutely is not the the most important element in that. Noam: [27:23] That and I think over the longer. These things will play out because ultimately customers have an expectation expectation that there are the places a shop or going to become more. Customer-centric more personalized if you don't have those foundational capabilities it will become a greater challenge but so many elements at play two to bring together. Jason: [27:43] Yep yep and where is early days but we're starting to see. Some third-party digital retail emerge that's focused on luxury and trying to cater to luxury and it's it's it's. Timmy I think the jury is out on whether they have the exact right experiences or not but it's it's going to be interesting to see if they start to change customer expectations. Bare luxury shopping we should be watching them closely whether we are in bed. Noam: [28:09] Yeah I think. I think it's the experience of experience has evolved across all sectors right it is changing consumer expectations and perceptions and so in my position I got to be close to that and see, where a customer wants to go and try to ideally be a step or two ahead so that we can build into that. Jason: [28:27] So what's pivot for a second we talked early on about like one of the difficult most important parts of these kinds of digital transformation being the organization how does tapestry structure itself I do you have all the. The digital expertise like federalized and you support all the brands are there. Digital folk sitting on each of the brands and does the digital Merchants next to the brick-and-mortar merchant is it the same person. Noam: [28:55] It's it's a I would call an ex and we're going from point A to point B with a creation of my role but ultimately. We were independent brands that rolled up in the one into one portfolio so each brand had their own digital capabilities, digital it was first federalized and now we're trying to create centers of excellence to then plug in and create scale, for those Brands so it's going to be a next ultimately it's a team sport the. The site merchandising the assortment architecture the day today commercial plan in those decisions were going to reside in the brand and then, the the foundational capabilities the plumbing the enablement, will be in centers of excellence so we're looking to bolster or digital teams I'll put in a Shameless plug like I did this morning but we're hiring for tapestry across all, digital disciplines roster Jensen pull string within WinCo brand functions but ultimately for it to work properly, everyone needs to act seamlessly it becomes a more specialized model than when you have distinct brand teams without the federalization but it's a again, Amex so that ultimately folks going to be more specialized more focused and then were, we're learning across the portfolio you talked about him goes like the the blue belt brown belt black belt. [30:20] It can be difficult to operate in a portfolio because you're trying to trying to build a lineman and consensus to a degree right and you've got disparate opinions you ultimately need to build and Define a demand management process today, you're clearly hearing articulating and partnering with business stakeholders to say, you want this capability what's the value there's the dollars and cents piece the input and output related to cost and then benefit was also a strategic element you have to incorporate and then each item is not just its own business case but, things connect together to become greater than the sum of the parts. So you got to you got to manage through that which is a challenge but also an opportunity cuz you get a broader View and then similarly in terms of implementing things, There's an opportunity to get one partner one brand to try something another brand to try something else and ultimately you can move at greater velocity cuz if something works for 1, my past experience is about 99.9% of the things that can quit win 4-1 win for everyone, I think one occurrence where it was did no harm and then the rest one so you can you can kind of with a portfolio more quickly propagate you do get to some scenarios where Regional differences really do manifest especially on the experience and then the the third party partner enable mint front, they can be somewhat the stink but a lot of these things will propagate successfully across a lot of the globe. Jason: [31:48] I think that maybe another one of the advantages of Euro versus mine is. Well you have a portfolio there's some commonality to that portfolio is a consultant I have a probably a much broader portfolio and it's definitely true in my world that there's things that can win for one client and actually do arm for another client. And like you know those warnings are real tough it makes it it makes these. Noam: [32:12] So that's why your test that's that's the beauty of of structured test. Jason: [32:15] Exactly I was just going to say like it is to me it really underscores this danger of best practices right in his notion that there is. Noam: [32:22] And benchmarking and yeah there's that you have to apply contacts that is a former consultant to a current one right there's always there's always that contact store marketing efficiency will if you invest, what's the Benchmark on market efficiency if we invest $1 will get an Infinity return, if we invest a billion dollars will get a much lower return because ultimately a lot of the media's biddable and there's an audience sizes and all of the supply-demand, economics come in the play as is overall aggregate brand Health sobran that's healthier and sometimes scale channels much further than a brand that's in a different stage you need to think about the funnel composition differently. Yeah these things all have to be taken in context and you got to be able to read the the distinct numbers. Jason: [33:05] I think you just crystallized the failure of Facebook marketing in one sentence right there no data driven decisions like show me the data if we're going to go to the pinions let's just use mine. Almost no one takes that advice but I'm I'm trying. Noam: [33:21] It's very clear though since I since the concise mask. Jason: [33:24] When confronted with the risk of taking my opinion people are suddenly much more open to collecting data. Yeah and I want to give it today. But just one car to find question you mention you're hiring for digital talent in New York you just moved in the cool office space in Hudson yard. So you get if you working digital at tapestry you can literally have Mama Food fried chicken for lunch everyday. Noam: [33:51] You can you can watch people crawl along the vessel like an ant farm every day lots of lots of fun things to to CVI we got great new offices at Hudson yards this beautiful place and I, we were one of the first tenants maybe the first tenant in Hudson yards and so the team is having a live through construction for a couple years when I join that construction was kind of finishing up so I get the benefit of this whole new kind of, City from scratch finally fully functional at the coast which is awesome. Jason: [34:20] I'm personally hoping that that's also style customer experiences don't catch on too much as I out of shape retail consultant it's a disaster for me every. Noam: [34:29] It does prove if you build it they might come. Jason: [34:31] It does indeed feel like Mama focus should have been at the top of the vessel maybe would have made sense but I tease data, one of the things that we talked about earlier in the show is this whole notion that like your digital properties have to wear two hats. Have to be transactional when a customer wants to buy something but they're also the brand ambassador and they are they. Best digital dressing room and I feel like that's a, a potential challenge for attribution right so if I'm equipped and I'm selling a $20 toothbrush I want every visitor that comes to my site to buy a toothbrush in that visit right and so my answer jimano's pretty simple like what, percentage of the people that came to my side. Noam: [35:16] Conversion rate is black and white good or bad. Jason: [35:18] Exactly but in your world there there's a ton of traffic across all your your digital properties that may not consummate the transaction but may have been wildly successful for you is a bran. So do you have a super robust attribution model to sort of account for that is that like something a. Noam: [35:39] We're working on that I mean I think there's I think there's a few layers to the cake there so attribution My head goes first the marketing and how do I think about marketing efficiency so we're going to tackling the typical econometrics models to, understand Diablo left more rigorously were talking about some Alpha Pilots with some Partners to help us kind of balance, econometric models and multi-touch attribution models there's, there's a whole journey that that were going to be undertaking I think some of your question all he's also gets into, the context of Journeys in Journey productivity and objectives at the session level and then objectives at the, visitor level and we're really looking to unpack that as we tackle rebuilding our experiences as we unify, are platforms over the next year or so and it's a really meaty exercise to get into I think the important thing. [36:31] Is to not get trapped in the in the historical norms and quit best practices but letting the data unlock what's really happening. How do we think about if a customer might come back 6 times, before they didn't go in the store by handbag how do we track that progress how do we understand that and how do we evolve and adapt the experience at each stage is really where are, thinking is that but the idea of conversion being black or white or a car abandoned being bad carb and may very well be highly predictive of the future store visit and we can do that as being a very productive activity cell, we're really trying to get into the depths of the data and understand it and not get into the typical funnel analysis cuz we're not playing a session game, and really trying to think about, what does she want to accomplish and how do we evolve a morph that experience to make sure that each touch point is a creative and to me that's super meat is a very complex, but it's really something that we can sink our teeth into in our space and if we get that right that creates an advantage in the marketplace. Jason: [37:39] Yeah that makes total sense it's funny. A lot of digital amateur companies will come to me as a consultant and they're like hey we built our funnel and we want to hire you to double our conversion in the funnel and my smart aleck response is always, that's super simple we're going to stop letting all this unqualified traffic coming. Noam: [37:57] We're only going to let repeat visitors back to the site where done. Jason: [38:00] Exactly and yet no one's taking me up on that approach I proposed it many times we got to figure that one out. So I want to give it to the future but before I do I had, one more specific questions about about customer experience that came up in your session you mentioned in China that the brick-and-mortar experience that luxury customers expect a super high touch experience in so you talked about some of these, wildly successful sales associates that are. Noam: [38:32] Tens of thousands of social followers. Jason: [38:34] And to me that's actually the most interesting thing like I feel like that's a common model in China is the sort of influencer as sales associate. Noam: [38:45] The importance of influencers more liberal even more important than I didn't hear you. Jason: [38:50] I'm actually very bullish on influenster other than the difficulty in scaling and sometimes and to me that influencers I care most about are those those micro influencers it's not the. The paid million follower sorting out to me that's that's broadcast advertising that does Micro influencers are super powerful scaling on ends up being the challenge, in China One of the cover ways they scale of me is they have all these employees who did they turn into influencers you own it. Noam: [39:20] A volunteer but yes. Jason: [39:21] Well sure you own a bunch of stores with Associates that likely decided to work in your store instead of another store, out of some strong brand Affinity in brand loyalty like is that an opportunity for luxury in the US to do a better job of enabling the employee base as home phone service. Noam: [39:44] I think it is I think the China right now allows for the greatest scale. To really scale amplify that one to one engagement and really dig in and in refined that. [39:57] Then take those learnings and then adapt them for the us but I think generally especially in our space, the the sales associate is a central figure in engagement is a huge opportunity I think. Today the the lens is a little too limiting where we we can I get boxed in dequeen Co clienteling systems and so okay you so she can send an email or a text look very, rigid views of the engagement based on, the platforms that people buy versus thinking more broadly about the clienteling experience and then how do we identify where that associate has, a potential Central role in that engagement and continuing the nurture that cuz again we're playing is long game in our space and. You know what what would appear play like what an Amazon with a low-friction can't replicate to this point is that human connection that that sales associate, is creating and so I think we've got a plate of that strength and figure out how to permeate that more broadly in our experiences and engagements that's it that's a lot of what we're thinking about him thinking about you blocked out of how we parse out the globe, and where we have this permission to engage at this huge scale at a very personal level. Build and refine our view and tactics and then take that and then look to employ that in the rest of the globe I think u.s. space companies tend to take a u.s. Centric approach. [41:20] Take the Playbook here in just kind of push it out and there's a lot of, Beyonce old stories about that so I think it's more about learning globally and having this by directional sharing and testing and evolution. Jason: [41:31] It's an interesting funny I do talk about one of the the best ways to compete with Amazon his obviously to sell stuff than Amazon doesn't sell and you talked about the personalized experience in the opportunities there I like in the lawn when I actually think that's going to extend. Do personalized products as well and I think that's an area where I know at least coach is already experimenting with some made to order product. There's so many trans we're seeing right now about customers wanting distinctiveness the. These different potential ownership models into me the. The opportunity for personalization is an exciting foil against the Amazon Amazons whole model is we've got a hundred seventy warehouses that are super close to the customer give us a million pieces of your property and we'll split them up amongst all those warehouses. Does warehouses are huge for a teacher can manage that suddenly go away when the customer wants something. Noam: [42:32] For them unique. Jason: [42:33] Unique to them and I think some of these like we're still Sterling the nail personalized experiences so it may be a little while before personalized products are its scale but to me that is one of the interesting risk factors that Amazon has in the. In a long-term beyond that is your thinking about the future if you were to sort of put your futures hat on and think about I don't know five years out. Is it like in your mind has the luxury shopping experience for medically changed is there. A wager any guesses as to how the consumer or the experience might be different than 5 years. Noam: [43:07] I think there's still a high level of store centricity I don't think we'll see. More than 50% of the transactions occur in online I think will be some number materially lower than that I think that ultimately if if some of us are successful the brand engagement will be more immersive than continuous. Versus just these big moments of coming into a store or a campaign launch but I think they'll be more of this always-on connectivity with, the resources that we have the bear weathers the sales associate at whether it's a ai-driven kind of product finding experiences whether it's more game of Acacia around product engagement and or product customization and just, customers playing with those permutations and ultimately slowly over time, you know finally getting the product the way that they want it and then transacting it and maybe a mix of some Automation in the customization to. [44:00] Help them in that process because ultimately people want to create they want you need product getting started can be kind of the key impediment so part of it is trying to think about. You know how do we create, that inspiration around what could be in letting that go I think also the the kissing cousin the product customization allow these drops right so people you know if it's a limited edition of 300 500, people can see it they like it and I know that everyone's not going to have the same thing that they can express themselves in a more unique and individual level, and I think that's been a lot of the the attraction to the drops that and just the exclusivity of it so I think I think the drop thing will continue but I'm hoping that. There's a little bit more from the drops to more engagement of product customization cuz I think we can play really well in that space and I think it's super exciting to allow the customer to. Fully Express themselves from product perspective with within the context of the brand value proposition super interesting to me. Jason: [44:57] I totally agree I think it's fascinating and I feel like that vision is a great place to leave it because it's happen again we've used up all our a lot of time if folks have questions or comments are welcome, continue the conversation on our Facebook page or hit us up on Twitter as always this episodes of great time to jump over to iTunes and finally give us that five star review You've been meaning to do, appreciate being on the show if folks want to find you online what's the best way to. Noam: [45:26] LinkedIn Stephanie the best way to hit me up and I'm highly responsive so particularly if you're interested in discussing careers or Partnerships with tapestry please hit me up on LinkedIn look for the conversation. Jason: [45:39] Awesome and we will put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes thanks again for taking the time today until next time happy commercing.