EP197 - Personalization Deep Dive
This episode is a deep dive into Personalization.
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Episode 197 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Monday, September 30. 2019.
Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.
Automated Transcription of the show
Jason: [0:24] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show this episode is being recorded on Monday September 30th 2019 I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual Wingo. Scot: [0:37] He Jason and welcome back Jason Scott show listeners a couple exciting things number one we are in the same room which rarely happens I think maybe one 18th of our episodes are in person we're we're in the same room so that's always fun. Jason: [0:52] Are we always going to see you at their my favorite and when we need to break out and you know use the big brains 100% of our brain for an episode I feel like we do our best work when we're together in the room. Scot: [1:02] Absolute between us we have a brain so one of the big request we've been getting a lot of lately is for another Deep dive. Jason: [1:12] Jason and Scott show. Scot: [1:25] So today show is going to be a deep dive and about a year ago so apologies. Everybody we we put out a call for listener request on deep Dives and one of the number one requested topics was personalization, that is one of Jason Specialties he's flying around the country constantly giving this talk for millions of dollars an hour so you guys are getting a great treat the only cost for this one is five stars so if you like what you hear give us five stars other people are paying high 9 figures for this talk so I'm going to be a fly on the wall in this one I'm going to inject hopefully some kind of intelligent comments as we go along but Nick kick it over to Jason who's going to, dive deep into the world of personalization. Jason: [2:13] Did you just tell everyone that I go around the world with a can presentation that's exactly the same for every audience that's about personalization. Scot: [2:21] I'm sure you personalize it that's let's talk about that do you personalize your personalization. Jason: [2:25] I for sure personally the cover slide and nothing else. Scot: [2:28] Okay well that counts. Jason: [2:30] Yeah and we we may talk about that but I've tried to break the show up into four main components today we're going to do a little bit of talking about, definition of personalization and level setting everyone get kind of all of us on the same page then I'm going to talk about what I see as sort of best practices today, country folks are doing and what some of the best examples are out there personalization and we're going to as we always do in the show kind of pivot to the near future and talk about what's coming and what's what's down the road a little bit in terms of personalization and maybe wrap things up with a, couple of conclusions and recommendations that folks can take to their day job if they're thinking about personalization. [3:14] So with that let's Jump Right In to the definition and the first thing I would like to remind people about more talking about personalization is. [3:25] The beginning of Commerce by the phone almost all shopping experience were personalized like shopping was a very one one experienced you are usually working directly with a merchant, and that Merchant was personalizing the shopping experience, to every one of their customers so yeah if you're old enough to have watched a Little House on the Prairie and you think of mr. Ingalls General Store, misery Ingles new all the customers that came into a store most of the goods were in the back and a stockroom so you talked to mr. Ingalls told him what you wanted to buy he'd go back, get your goods and if you bought less sugar than you did last month or you bought more flour or something like that, he very likely would have a conversation with you about why you were changing your order and he would know about you and he would personalize that shopping experience to your needs, and so what his sort of happened is the population of the Earth dramatically expanded from that General Store format and we were no longer able, deliver that personalized one-on-one experience to every Shopper and so we kind of, went to the the ear of mass marketing and mass retail and you'll be able to fit a bunch of customers in the store and have a beer a self-service and so what's interesting to me is all of this modern digital Shopper marketing, what is really doing is letting us get back to the kind of one-to-one experience that mr. Ingles used to deliver. [4:53] I'm sorry mr. Olson used to deliver but now do it at scale and so when we're talking about personalization, to me it's really getting back to the best practices of the origins of Commerce that being said, one thing that always annoys me about this topic is, personalization isn't a single thing it's a tactic and it's a whole range of tactics and so. [5:23] Frankly I see a ton of studies and there's always a sort of Talking Heads talking about like, oh gosh 60% of customers want a more personalized experience if you deploy personalization you have 13% greater sales or higher A RVs or all these different things, and I was like to remind people that somewhat absurd because, there's no definition for what. Personalization is it's it's a tactic it's kind of like saying stores with green paint will sell more stuff well, where is the green paint and what color is the tree in paint and in some cases it might have a prominent pronounced effect in some cases it might have a negative effect so I just when I talk to clients that are starting a personalization initiative I like always start by reminding them, we're trying to achieve is not personalization like the goal isn't just to have something to be more personalized than it was before, personalizing things to make them more relevant to the customer and make the customer more successful and so I always like to begin with that end in mind that were the outcome we're really seeking is relevancy not personalization. Scot: [6:32] So then to all of our listeners out there probably have 50 things they could be working on if you can't say spend X get why then how do you help them understand where to put personalization and their party list. Jason: [6:44] So I actually wouldn't I wouldn't have personalization as a initiative on my road map and say I'm prioritizing it number 12 I would have initiatives on my road map like, improve my conversion rate increase my customer lifetime value increase my engagement with my content I would have bills like that and, in the process of achieving some of those goals one of the tactics that's going to be very helpful is to personalize the experience to achieve those goals so it's always a red flag, when I see people that have quote-unquote personalization on there on the road map and you know I'm somewhere, negative and sarcastic, one of the Retailer's that's been the awful lot of time talking about their personalization success and they get used as an example all the time is a brand that was bought by QVC called Zulily a daily deal, and they made the road shows and then all these case studies about their personalization and the really, did they generate millions of custom landing pages every day for their customers. [7:55] 99% of that custom landing page means that it says welcome Scott in the right-hand corner when you go to that page, so technically that is personalized they know who you are in the page changed but if the offers aren't more relevant if it didn't somehow make you more successful, it's it's not a meaningful personalization. Scot: [8:16] One More For Dummies question that hopefully some other listeners have so when I talk to a Lottery retailers they always some retailers you go visit their older obsessed with Persona so you'll go to visit some extra pictures on the wall that say you know this is Debbie she's a soccer mom she's 40 - 35 she's got two kids and she lives in suburban and then doll, a lot of times they'll customize the user experience for those people in Dick's Sporting Goods does a lot of this as does Best Buy, so and I Best Buy one of the guys for the book The Angel customer demon customer in a lot of the Persona stuff comes out of that if you and I think she has like cat lovers dog lovers and, both animal lovers so if you go and you kind of have the experience so you know when your database that Jason is a cat person and he is a dad of a toddler and that's Persona is that personalization, and then you have time of different experience that person. Jason: [9:19] To me that absolutely is personalization it's on the spectrum of personalization right so if you're someone that has historically had like a one-size-fits-all marketing program you have 5 million names in your email list, once a week you blast all five million of those people of the exact same email and you instead go hey you know what, half of that email list for dog lovers and half for cat lovers so I'm going to segment my email list in the two chunks and I'm going to email a cat email 2/2 and a dog email to have that absolutely is personalization, it's not as far on the spectrum is saying, this emails going to Scott and I know that he only buys grain-free cat food and so I'm going to send him a very specific email that only he got based on his unique attributes, personas are a very useful way to do this sort of intermediate step and often, frankly that that still today is the high value stem so often the ROI you get from going from, a one-size-fits-all campaign to a Cygnet a campaign, is much more significant than the incremental Ryu you get by going to the much more expensive dynamically generated when one campaign if you will. Scot: [10:39] Coke so hopefully you will I'm sure you'll hit on the Spectrum but the reason I bring it up is a lot of these start-up I'm a startup guy and all you start up Brands come to me and they said look I want to do, discount personalization stuff and their you know to them it's a 5 or 10 million dollar project cuz there's this database I know you guys have something name for this database that like, put all the stuff together there's a serum feeds into it and then like all this data. Jason: [11:02] The customer data platform. Scot: [11:03] Yeah the CDP yeah and then you know they go look at the vendors for that and that's like in a couple million box and then like the project on it and all so just feels unobtainable mom and you know it just feels like this huge thing to do personalization whereas my recommendation is just start with pre simple segmentation and then even then you know you can get a little bit of refinement in there and even that you talked about it and email marketing even on your website you know you can kind of have in your Skyrim are there cat or dog person and then showing a little bit different content feels like you should get a that's more of a $100,000 project versus a 10 million dollar project. Jason: [11:39] And we'll get into that a little bit better off and it's even are they return customer versus a first-time customer right maybe I don't like are they already in my email marketing list maybe I don't need to use that pop up to interrupt others who were asking for their email address when I already have. Scot: [11:53] Yeah or push the product I know they just bought 5 minutes ago. Jason: [11:56] Exactly like so very often it's those simple steps that are that are high Roi we're not going to get deep in, personas but I will like since you brought it up I'll make one comment on person personas the mistake a lot of people make on personas is they start internally in, so they go who do we imagine our customer is who do we want our customer and so I'll be, retail R I work with has a Persona and very rarely does the Persona on the wall map the demographics of their customer base so, almost always the Persona is this like young hip stylish woman. Scot: [12:40] Affluent urbanite stylish. Jason: [12:45] Who is coming from women that are 15 years older and are doing more utilitarian shopping until, is aspirational personas there's there's places where they can be beneficial but often people confuse those with her actual personas. Scot: [13:01] The same thing with them. Jason: [13:02] And the same thing with demographics like people often start by saying like, we should do things different from Millennials then we do for Boomers and they they take some random trait and then, ascribe different experiences to that different trait of the customer and that's actually opposite of how you really want to do it what you really want to do is say, like who are most valuable customers and what traits do they have in common and it's so it may be aged and maybe geography and maybe use case, personalization based on some traits as opposed to identifying the trades Based on data is a a common mistake week we see in marketing, so I wanted to sort of talk about what some of the common kinds of personalization that that we see today because there's so many different touch point, they can be personalized and they can be personalized on different spectrums. Scot: [13:57] Personalization acronyms. Jason: [14:01] Instead of just giving you my opinion which obviously my opinion is very near and dear to my own heart, I wanted to use some data to start a frame that since so I study you would be familiar with it is they interact partners with Forester every year and they do this state of online retailing study, and so what they do is they go out to hundreds of retailers and e-commerce shops and they have them fill out a survey answering a bunch of questions about their business and some of those questions pertain directly, personalization so one up for purposes of our deep dive one of the most interesting questions is. [14:39] What personalization touchpoint do you or tactic do you prioritize the highest and you know what are the next 10 and Ray, so looking across the whole sort of study, touchpoints that retailer said that they were focused on and that they were prioritizing so the number one personalized touchpoint, in the sort of study is personalized recommendations in email so would that essentially means is, you probably got a generic emailed it was the same for everyone but at some point in that email we're product tiles that were recommending a particular product that you might be interested in buying, and those product tiles were personalized unique for you based on some attributes that that retailer had learned about you so they're using tools like, annotate or certona richrelevance are Dynamic yield against the database to decide what products are recommended Scott and those could be different than the product that came in the recommendation to me. [15:44] Of all things that can be personalized that's the highest priority the second highest priorities what we already talked about it segmenting that email is based on some attributes we know about the customer so instead of one-size-fits-all, partition that email and make static content but static content it's more catered to that particular segment, 1/3 personalization. Scot: [16:09] Syntactic is marketing messages on other. Jason: [16:10] What is marketing messages on other sites so that's things like, remerge remarketing in the ads that follow you around the internet and use that you know the fact that you browse for a product on our website to recommend products from other people sites, that on sites recommendation so that's the same as the email recommendation but instead of showing it to you in an email we're showing it to you on a category page or product detail page and soda, ramazan that's the people that bought this also bought this or browse for this also browse for that or those those kinds of recommendations, the number 5 on the list is personalized messages on devices in stores so that's usually geofencing the mobile phone and popping up an offer or a promotion on the phone when you know you walked into the store, number six is personalized discounts so custom offers, something unique we know about you number seven is the Zulily example that I brought up for her, addressing the customer by name instead of treating them as is unknown entity and number eight is giving better info. [17:27] Open history to sales associates in the store so that they can deliver a more personalized experience to the retailer rights of all the things in the world that can be personalized, the sort of state of our industry has those are the eight that retailers are tending to focus the most on and putting the most energy in right now, and I would argue that those are all pretty pedestrian. Scot: [17:53] Marketing messages on other sites could be part of the problem with the challenges is so see a Google ad you know Google doesn't give you enough information to really kind of know hey this is Jason and his login and kissing him a very targeted an ad campaign. Jason: [18:09] Although I would say the digital ads are becoming an easy touch point for that personalization so there are now a lot of Google ad formats that can be dynamically generated and so instead of, one you may have a a breath of creative in Google automatically assembles the creative for a given customer and even more so, super Tom in advertising format on Facebook are look-alikes which is sort of another form of personalization like only showing that ad for a targeted audience that you think it's highly relevant for. Scot: [18:45] How come with all this personalization technology out there the number one retargeting thing when I buy something off Amazon is the thing I just bought my question why are people doing that. Jason: [18:56] Executions are hard and we're going to talk about that later. Scot: [19:01] The pitfalls but like you know you. Jason: [19:05] When you run into retailers that have like hey we have a specific initiative on a road map called personalization and then, when you want we want to build this really expensive custom, Farmall are things to to drive personalization. Scot: [19:18] 2dr personalization and very often. Jason: [19:21] Am I cool that's a great aspirational goal could we start by just using the exclusion list. Scot: [19:26] Country Market. Jason: [19:28] To not Market something to someone that they already bought right in that to me is a way higher value for my personalization because not only are you likely paying for. Scot: [19:37] Likely paying for an imp. Jason: [19:38] Depression that's not adding any value, it's actually adding negative value like when you see a retailer advertising something that you just bought your immediate perception as discussed this retailer doesn't care about me they don't know me they're not trying to, experiencer know what I want they're just using some real Brute Force marketing techniques to try to sell more junk. Scot: [20:02] Yeah and sometimes it's ahead faking you like wait a minute, pretty sure I ordered that let me go make sure certainly they would be advertising to me if I already ordered that then I'm like well let me go check and make sure the order went through but didn't create this negative perception that they have no idea what's going on in my orders. Jason: [20:19] I guess the one thing I will say is good news like to go out to me the sort of list is a little disappointing right way. Scot: [20:27] They're much more versions of. Jason: [20:30] Personalization in the ones on this West but I will say the majority of things on this list have the potential to dream meaning for you to drive incremental results so, couple of these are around segmenting audiences which we just talked about is a potentially. Scot: [20:44] Potentially a relatively easy. Jason: [20:46] A relatively easy high-value form of personalization and these product tiles beat that with the. Scot: [20:53] Recommendations. Jason: [20:56] They're not part of his super sexy in our industry, but I've seen a lot of studies that suggest something like 35% of all of Amazon's revenue comes from those recommendation tiles so customers find them Super Value, are you on a site like Amazon where the catalog is huge and unmanageable there even more valuable, I'm so if you if you're a retailer with a more pure rated catalog you know maybe like recommendations don't at 35% but but still, is there a super meaningful tactic and I. Scot: [21:30] I was checking when I walk around. Jason: [21:30] When I walk around the trade show floor and people are like we've invented this new thing called artificial intelligence and you can use it to recommend fraud, and I'm like yeah I must have good eCommerce sites have been doing that since 1990s. Scot: [21:43] Isn't one of the vendors a bunch of Amazon guys that left to kind of day essentially said hey this is so powerful at Amazon that we will create our own his net richrelevance are they at their service. Jason: [21:54] I would almost say that you just described all the person, obligatory part of your sales pitches that you you say that you are part of the Amazon team that helping me. Scot: [22:02] You say that you were part of the Amazon team that helped invented their version. Jason: [22:07] There are because this is been such a high-value tactic there companies that have been around for a long time and do this so that. Scot: [22:11] I've been around for a long time and do this so that like I think of. Jason: [22:14] That is sort of the rich relevance my buys and certona as kind of the, the first-generation recommendation engines and I mean we're not getting an event or selection on the show, to working with a vendor that's been doing this for 10 or 15 years because they actually have, manically refine their abilities and they've seen a lot of data from customers and so you know you. Scot: [22:39] You get things like we've already had 10. Jason: [22:41] And wine customers and so we tuned are all our rhythms to do a great job of recommending wine so if you're a wine vendor, train to the recommendation systems based on a lot of other one customers on the flip side, this is also an odd category where there's a lot of new shiny vendors that have just come to the market with Next Generation Solutions and you don't very often touting more modern machine learning based approaches. Scot: [23:09] And in some. Jason: [23:11] Cases they have invented a new mouse trap and so it may have some some architectural or competitive Advantage is so it's a area where the good news is you have a lot of choice the bad news is you really have to do some investigation to figure out, the best solution for us. Scot: [23:27] Call if you don't like the Soro list what's the Jason list. Jason: [23:32] Going to get to the Jason list in, this is an what's an what's an XO so. Scot: [23:36] 3 question for pause on that for just one second one more thing I wanted to talk about in. Jason: [23:43] Current state is another question on the sort of list is how do you judge the success. Scot: [23:47] Judge the success of your per. Jason: [23:50] Personalization into the top three metrics that retailer said they were using today to judge the success of their personalization efforts were conversion rate, through rate and average order value, and well those are generally important metrics for all e-commerce with actually I'm somewhat disappointed that those are the primary metrics people are using to judge personalization, there could be a lot of great personalization that saw the customer's problem that didn't cause the customer necessary to buy more stuff so I would r, aov is not directly related to personalization and very, personalization is based on all the attributes we've already learned from you will each time you come we learn more about you and therefore the personalization can be better so the personalization you get on, touch with me should be much better than the personalization you got on your first touch with me and if I'm only evaluating these personalization. Scot: [24:52] Based on the individual. Jason: [24:53] When the individual experience the individual visit, conversion rate I'm not thinking about or noticing that some of those customers were resulting from 8 touches and in a much richer dataset than some of these customers that were Anonymous I'm on their first touch in Sol, it's really important. Scot: [25:14] You know if you want to get. Jason: [25:15] Personalization writing you're going to be investing meaningfully and changing your experiences what you want to be optimizing the person was a shin for is really customer lifetime value now. Scot: [25:24] Not the outcome. Jason: [25:25] The outcome of a single session or a single single customer interaction and so to me that feels like a mistake that can often cause you to invest in the wrong tack. Scot: [25:37] Do you recommend people run kind of A and A B test so no personalization and then personalization in and can I use that Benchmark the lifetime value. Jason: [25:47] You can but I'm actually not so interested in personalization versus no personalization I'm interested in current state versus potential new state, take care of your current state is personalized or not if your current state. Scot: [26:03] If you're trying to say is personalized I'm testing that newest. Jason: [26:07] Experience versus your current one not against nothing, if you will and then the last thing that I like to point out this kind of a sad fact of our current state of affairs in personalization is most personalization today is delivered through some kind of Point solution from a vendor so, that specialize in send an email right so they collect a bunch of information about the customers and 2nd at the email there vendors that specialize in recommendation tiles on your website we talked about a bunch of those. Scot: [26:35] There are vendors. Jason: [26:36] There is that personalize your your digital advertising campaigns and at the moment all of these Point Solutions want to be easy. Scot: [26:44] I want to be easy to buy. Jason: [26:45] I am easy to install so they tend to. Scot: [26:47] How to be sassy. Jason: [26:49] Space solutions that are very lightweight to install in your stack. Scot: [26:52] Call in your stack and have their own. Jason: [26:55] The databases where they collect information so they want to tag on your site to learn about the customer and then they use what they learn to personalize their touchpoint and of course, downside of that is the personalized email. Scot: [27:09] Nails aren't benefiting from the learning. Jason: [27:09] Benefiting from the earnings of the recommendations tool on your website at all or the recommendation Tools in your customer service engine or, creative that you're learning how to make for your ads isn't been having a payoff on your own website in your own dicks perience is and so like clearly the current state of Point Solutions is somewhat problematic. Scot: [27:33] Like obviously it would be much better. Jason: [27:35] If you aggregated everything you knew about the customer in a single data repository and leverage that single view of the customer, personalize your experience across all these touchpoints and that's kind of. Scot: [27:49] That that idealistic in and say that you talk to me. Jason: [27:51] Idealistic in in state that you talked about earlier that hey maybe you know there is an argument for having a CDP and having all these tools, bridge at CDP but to be honest like before I invested millions of dollars in that cdpi, maybe I don't need the world's best vendor for each one of these touchpoints maybe one vendor that could do multiple touch points and share their own database is good enough in a way that going to not create more silos. Scot: [28:18] Yeah it seems like a good CRM system is kind of the key to this and then also if you want to get smarter you know uses, the example of wine earlier really good product data seems like you know those are going to be table Stakes for for being able to do any of this conversation to talk about, but then it also seems like we always see these kind of like you know all the big companies trying to go on these stacks of things now that's a big Trend in the vendor side so is that happening are like so we've got the cloud guys who've got the sales worth Cloud the Adobe Cloud the sap cloud and is there some other Cloud I guess Microsoft back in the game now and then so you got all the cloud guys and then you probably have some of the the platform guys in there most of platform guys have been acquired by the cloud guys but I'm sure they're still platform guys I'm in any of the all these kind of like Loosely you know hanging out their vendors like the conversion guys, or are they all trying to piece it together with their offering and get you two are they trying to solve that problem or they just kind of spline together Point Solutions. Jason: [29:24] It's a partially it's as these Solutions become more table Stakes it's more calm, version of these experience personalized version of these experiences is built into the core platforms are clouds so they're almost certainly, mandation engine in your base installation of Shopify or Salesforce Commerce cloud or or any any of those platforms and their their customers that will use that bass version, it's still super common that people like to go shop for their own Point Solutions and layer that in but increasingly the. Scot: [30:06] The plant puns are. Jason: [30:07] Giving you some reason and benefit not to not to do that right like him so you know the, in the case of Salesforce Commerce cloud, they have this artificial intelligent engine that they developed at Salesforce call Einstein and the the first appearance of Einstein in the Salesforce Commerce cloud is, this native product recommendations based on their Advanced machine-learning and so increasingly they would say they maybe don't buy the point solution use our Advanced Einstein, Define solute. Scot: [30:39] Still quickly point out yeah but I am. Jason: [30:42] Einstein seeing boat parts for the first time and we know every attribute about boat parts because we've worked with 10 vendors that sell boat parts oh, they're still arguments both ways, obviously your data is a little cleaner and more Universal if you can get by with a the solutions that come from your platform Bender, so pivoting to sort of Jason's recommendations and this will come as no shock based on. Scot: [31:10] Is no shock based on some of the. Jason: [31:12] Conversations we've already had. Scot: [31:14] I don't like. Jason: [31:16] I can start by saying like hey let's create the world's most expensive database and use the most advanced math in the world to you no dramatically change the shopping experience I like to start with the low-hanging fruit. Scot: [31:29] Answer the first question. Jason: [31:29] Answer the first question I asked when where. Scot: [31:32] I'm talking about any kind of. Jason: [31:34] Personalization initiative is where are all the places in our customer Journey when we're asking the customer for some piece of information that we already have. Scot: [31:37] All the places in our customer Journey when we're asking the customer for some piece of information that we already have and. Jason: [31:45] If you take an inventory of this in your customer Journey you were going to be shy. Scot: [31:48] Shot how many times. Jason: [31:50] You ask someone for an email address you are, how many times you ask someone for their preferred shipping address like all of this information we collect over and over again and it's super frustrating when a customer trust us with that information. Scot: [32:08] And then we don't pay it off and I'm talking about. Jason: [32:11] The simplest things in the world that no one thinks of no customer that's created an account with you can remember. Scot: [32:17] Their password so here's what happens. Jason: [32:18] So here's what happens when they go to your site they it says type your email address and they take their email address and then it says type your password in the customer goes oh no I don't know my password so hopefully right below that is a link that says. Scot: [32:33] What if you forgot your password and when you put that link what all. Jason: [32:34] Password and when you click that link what always have, go to a new page with a form that says type your email address which you just did 3 seconds ago right and that's a super simple thing to fix programmatically and grab that info from the previous View. Scot: [32:46] To fix programmatically and grab Daddy that's what kind of like not. Jason: [32:52] That's the kind of like not sexy personalization. Scot: [32:56] The dramatic. Jason: [32:58] Broccoli helps customers and so you know I like to always start with this bassline don't collect any information about the customer unless you're. Scot: [33:06] Prepared to use that. Jason: [33:07] To give them a better customer experience and first and foremost that means never have to ask the customer for the same piece of information. Scot: [33:15] So once you've knocked out. Jason: [33:15] So once you've knocked out those things. Scot: [33:18] The next one I like to highlight is the one you just hit don't promote stuff that I already bought. Jason: [33:22] But I already bought right so the most overt version of that is the retargeting ads for the thing that I just bought from you and I'll be honest there's two reasons that happens there's a lazy reason. Scot: [33:37] Which is all of those retargeting tools have a tool called. Jason: [33:38] Which is all of those retargeting tools have a tool called an exclusion list and So when you buy something I should put you on the exclusion list for. Scot: [33:44] You on the exclusion list for that product. Jason: [33:47] And then that add you never show up again and there's a lot of reasons why someone may have skip the plumbing step in doing that. Scot: [33:52] Skip the plumbing step in doing that. Jason: [33:55] I'm in that to me a super lazy. Scot: [33:57] Sometimes you browsed that product Anon. Jason: [34:01] A product anonymously. Scot: [34:04] And then you bought it via some other mechanism it so I don't actually know. Jason: [34:04] NBA some other mechanism in so I don't actually know. Scot: [34:08] Honest third party. Jason: [34:09] I hate that you're the same person that bought that product so there can be. Scot: [34:14] Can you use cases that are harder. Jason: [34:15] Where to sell for than others but minimizing the times when you promote that stuff they already sold his huge but I want to remind people. Scot: [34:22] Away bigger. Jason: [34:23] Yusuke says in that retargeting the retardant in particular, is Virgin but how many emails do you think you get from app. [34:33] And what are you wearing on your wrist right now and do you have that fancy new iPhone 11 Pro Max in Europe. Scot: [34:40] 11 Promax in your pocket I did guess. Jason: [34:44] So what are the featured items on every single email you've gotten from Apple in the last two weeks since you got. Scot: [34:51] What's the park sorry. Jason: [34:53] It's as simple as they do a one-size-fits-all mailing and said they mailed you the exact same thing and they did. Scot: [35:00] Did you get it from the carrier who should also know it for now. Jason: [35:05] Totally hanging fruit that totally eroded your confidence and relationship in that that brand on a subconscious level right in so, fix those things first and then after you stopped asking. Scot: [35:17] Stop asking people for information you already know and stop trying to sell them. Jason: [35:21] Go and stop trying to sell them products that they already bought then you can get into the sexy stuff of surprising and delighting customers by giving on these personalized experiences that they didn't, how to make their shopping better right and those, Moosejaw mountaineering when you're buying ski boots and was John knows what size ski boots you bought last season and help remind you of what size you bought before you have to select a size right like, is Boots do you want last year you bought 9 and 1/2 like those those kinds of surprise and Delight moments or hay a year ago you bought your dad a gift from Sephora. Scot: [36:01] To get this year like those kind of like more. Jason: [36:02] This year like those kind of like more advanced personalization a surprise. Scot: [36:07] But to me they're kind of later in the. Jason: [36:07] But to me they're kind of later in the Spectrum after we get those table Stakes squared away, talk a little bit about the 360 degree view of the customer but that really is, and increasingly something that you need to think about even if you don't want to invest in the fancy CDP and all those tools today you still are collecting information about new customers everyday, one thing I would highly recommend every customer invest in is some basic data governance, around personalization and then David data privacy and by that what I mean is make sure you're disclosing to the customer what you're collecting and how you're going to use it because 4 years from now you're going that way more advanced personalization tools that are available. Scot: [36:50] You have way more advanced personalization tools that are available to you right now and you're going to want to use all this data that you've. Jason: [36:55] I use all this data that you've collected over the last 5 years in your business. Scot: [36:59] And if you think. Jason: [37:00] The European in California privacy laws are kind of restricted right now. Scot: [37:04] Now there's a good bet they're going to. Jason: [37:06] Can be more restrictive down the road and it'll be a shame. Scot: [37:09] And it'll be a shame if you're not allowed to use any. Jason: [37:12] Any of your data because you didn't follow best data governance practices and how you collected it but just by, policy in the right disclosures when you collect that data today it frees you much more to leverage that data in the future when they will be better ways to Leverage. Scot: [37:29] Is there a day where the Privacy stuff will be ramped up so high we won't be able to do the level personalization talk about. Jason: [37:36] For sure there will be some levels of personalization we want to do. [37:43] Like a lot of customers that come to a site on unauthenticated meaning is the first time they came to the side. Scot: [37:49] Or they've been a disciple. Jason: [37:51] Before and maybe even create an account but I didn't give them a compelling reason to log in with. Scot: [37:55] When they came back. Jason: [37:56] Cancel a look like an anonymous user to me and there are actually a lot of evil technology tactics we can use. Scot: [38:05] You recognize that uh nothing. Jason: [38:06] Recognize that unauthenticated user. Scot: [38:08] Weekend. Jason: [38:09] Look at all of the different settings that they've made in their brows are increasing almost a unique fingerprint from their brows or to identify them, close to uniquely we can share data with other vendors secretly to identify them pretty unique Lake, we used, people sites would have come across a. Scot: [38:28] Cross-site in browser cookies and all of those kinds of tactics are slowly but surely getting. Jason: [38:32] Ticks are slowly but surely getting turned off and so absolutely it is harder to personalize an experience for unauthenticated user today than it used to be because of some of these, you like frankly very good consumer protections that are put in place and so like you know we just have, live within the constraints that are offered but there are a ton of things we can still do with it within those constraints. Scot: [38:59] Yeah that's as consumer I find myself preferring apps for your my best commonly shop things via food delivery or in that stuff because the apps never they don't consciously bug me for my username and password, Scot interesting that they're held kind of a different standard than the website guys that the the app on your phone to remind even when I just did my whole as you upgrade OS has and then move phones they do a pretty good job of the, login credentials following you in and not kind of having to remember everything. Jason: [39:28] So your authentication on your amp is much more persistent than your authentication on the web. Scot: [39:34] The browser gently by default. Jason: [39:35] Gently by default live cookies expire and some. Of time but even, at some point many users have an occasion to clear their cookies and it might have had nothing to do with you it might have been they didn't try some other side they used or said some other problem. Scot: [39:49] That's another problem but on the. Jason: [39:50] The browser the settings are Universal So when you say clear all my cookies the easiest thing to do is clear. Scot: [39:53] The easiest thing to do is clear the cookies. Jason: [39:56] For every set you've ever been to, you're much more granular a working with a single site so you know people tend to just didn't used to be the case in amps by the way you used to be when they upgraded the operating system that wiped out all those authentications now that they're. Scot: [40:10] Yeah they're way better at even having those authentic. Jason: [40:14] Even having those authentications persist, operating system upgrades the downside is to me in this ecosystem of Commerce for the most part apps are way overrated, best users use your app, that's super valuable to them but the amount the percentage of your total Shopper base that are willing to download and regularly use your app is very small and so it's almost always a mistake to feel like because I have a good app experience I have a good experience. Scot: [40:44] So with that caveat. Jason: [40:47] I would totally agree. Scot: [40:48] And that leads me to my next best pract. Jason: [40:49] I was mean to my next best practice one of the most important things you can do for personalization is give the user a really good reason to I. Scot: [40:58] Identify themselves every time. Jason: [40:58] By themselves every time they interact with you so that you are dealing with an authenticated user right allows you to give them a much better experience that's much lower, more loyalty and so one of the most compelling reasons we give to customers to authenticate themselves every time they come back to my site is by offering them some kind of loyalty, so it's not a coincidence that when we look at some of the retailers that are best at personalization they tend to be the retailers that have the most successful highest engaged customer loyalty and a fin and an affinity program, historically that's kind of but points for purchase program increasingly they're more nuanced than that in so there can be a lot of, the the Loyalty program and I often talked about it being a frequency program instead of a loyalty program cuz it's really. Scot: [41:51] Is it really about getting the customer. Jason: [41:54] To come in interact with you a lot as opposed to exclusively, implementing a loyalty program that resonates with your customers that causes them to authenticate themselves every time they come to your side is a super valuable tactic that enables all of these other personalizations to be more successful, so with that being said most common question I get is who's greater personalization who should I Benchmark myself against and it's always really hard to answer because a, who's better at what kind of personalization as we talked about early there's no Universal definition so is Zulily greatest personalization because they create all these Dynamic home pages with your name on it, probably not. Scot: [42:39] But what does good. Jason: [42:39] But what does good personalization look like and I always I struggle to give an answer but I'm happy to report that, vendor out there sail through his started doing I think this is the third year of pretty cool personalization index and so what they've done is they've said, hey we think there's about a hundred. Scot: [42:57] What is the e-commerce. Jason: [42:58] Front ways that e-commerce sites typically personalize their site and we're going to look at the top 500 e-commerce sites. Scot: [43:06] And evaluate all of them against. Jason: [43:07] How you ate all of them against these hundred criteria and sort of a sensuous for them so they. Scot: [43:13] Eccentric. Jason: [43:13] Essentially created a framework and then they apply this framework to these 500 sites which is a significant amount of work and 10 so you can download and we'll put a link in the show notes their personalization index, top 10 retailers on their personal visit relation index are generally retailers we think of is. Scot: [43:29] Index are generally retards we think of is being pretty good at Italy. Jason: [43:33] Personalization so number one is Sephora it's by the way 95% of all Sephora's. Scot: [43:38] 95% of all Sephora's Revenue. Jason: [43:41] Comes from their frequency program and they're great at getting customers to engage with him. Scot: [43:47] They don't send out a lot of mass. Jason: [43:49] Emails like almost all the emails are targeted and triggered based on activities that you had with Sephora so I would totally argue I would totally agree that Sephora is, petitioner of personalization, they know you're the best and they they leverage what they know to improve your experience number 2 on that list is Nordstrom they have some very strong personalization points number 3 on that list is Rent the Runway, this is getting into an area that's more, future looking Rent the Runway is acting only personalizing Experian, personalizing the assortment in the merchandising based on what they know about you so you know they're using your personal preferences to decide. Scot: [44:30] You know they're using your personal preferences to decide. Jason: [44:33] What sizes and styles of stuff they should even offer which is interesting Home Depot is on is number 4 on the list Best Buy's number 5, DSW is number 6 Ulta's number 7 Urban Outfitters and number 8 Adidas is number 9 and Wayfair is number 10, full disclosure the sales. Scot: [44:58] Who pick their own hundred attributes and you and I could quibble with whether they picked. Jason: [45:01] Quibble with whether they pick the right hundred attributes and how many points you should get for everything so I wouldn't necessarily use this as a literal. Scot: [45:08] Like these are absolutely the 10 best. Jason: [45:09] These are absolutely the 10 best companies in personalization Anderson companies. Scot: [45:13] But I think I great. Jason: [45:14] Malaysian that aren't necessarily aren't even on this list. Scot: [45:17] With that being said if you are doing an internal project in your saying hey who should we Benchmark ourselves with who's better personalization like neither. Jason: [45:20] If you're doing an internal project in your saying hey who should we Benchmark ourselves with whose go to personalization like to me this is as good a list as any as a sort of start. Scot: [45:29] A company that show their math are talking like proving why they. Jason: [45:32] It showed their math are talking like proving why they think someone's go to personalization which is super. Scot: [45:38] In your experience let's say your kind of world-class like this what's it going to do to the lifetime value of your customer are you going to get like, I'm in a material so that customers worth $200 is going to go to 500 or what have you seen anonymously amongst your clients as the output of the increasing customer lifetime value. Jason: [45:57] I'm not trying to be coy it's super hard to answer because almost no one's going from 0 to best-in-class. Scot: [46:06] Glass. Jason: [46:08] You probably were very incremental so, it's hard to measure the whole lifetime journey of their personalization unless you've been working with a client for a very long time so very often we do the. Scot: [46:20] Often we do things like. Jason: [46:23] Hey let's remediate all of those you know redundant information request. Scot: [46:28] And like honestly those kinds of. Jason: [46:29] Honestly those kinds of changes rarely show like single session. Scot: [46:33] Young wild improvements. Jason: [46:34] But they show meaningful changes. Scot: [46:37] Things like NPS score and meaningful changes in in things like customer lifetime value. Jason: [46:43] What time value. Scot: [46:44] That. Jason: [46:46] Second tier of personalization where we say like hey I'm going to use every touchpoint I have with a customer. Scot: [46:52] The customer to promote something meaning. Jason: [46:54] Painful and not something they already. Scot: [46:55] I absolutely have customers that have seen 50% increase. Jason: [46:57] Absolutely have customers that have seen 50% increases in customer lifetime value in the first Hugo hey Jason that seems like, Improvement like how is that possible but when you think about it if you're hitting someone 30 times a year with a marketing message. Scot: [47:12] Three times a year with a marketing message and some hand your best version of that message is impactful and really causes customers to take something for. Jason: [47:17] Something your best version of that message is impactful and really causes customers to take something criminal action and buy something. Scot: [47:25] And instead of using your best message you're squandering a bunch. Jason: [47:26] Using your best message you're squandering a bunch of those 30 interactions by hitting them with something that's totally irrelevant to them and they're for sure. Scot: [47:34] We're not going to buy like essentially you've doubled or tripled your. Jason: [47:36] Essentially you doubled or tripled your frequency without any risk. Scot: [47:42] Of increased unsub. Jason: [47:43] Subscribes or filtering or other problems that you usually have when you increase your frequency. Scot: [47:49] So you're getting more. Jason: [47:51] Morning hits for free essentially so that that can be super high value and then that sort of third tier. Scot: [47:54] Back and be super high value and then that sort of third tier is is sort of all across the board if you're someone that had no product recommendations and you have a big complicated catalog and you add product recommendations you prob. Jason: [48:00] Is sort of all across the board if you're someone that had no product recommendations and you have a big complicated catalog and you add product recommendations you probably are going to see a 20 or 30% lift in sales like if you're someone that has, can you add recommendation tiles probably not going to be as meaningful because most customers are going to be able to manage your whole catalog without the recommendations, so Scot: [48:27] That's kind of where we're at today in terms of. Jason: [48:28] Where we're at today in terms of who's doing well and what they're doing but what I spend most of my time talking about is. Scot: [48:33] But what I spend most of my time talking about is where the puck is going to be what are people going to be thinking about what's going to be the best. Jason: [48:40] This is next year or. Scot: [48:44] Are they in the next 18 months. Jason: [48:45] Answer to years what should readers be investing in. Scot: [48:47] Investing in now. Jason: [48:48] All anticipating the the you know continuing changes that customer expectations are going to have so the kind of things that come up here. Scot: [48:57] There are richer versions of. Jason: [48:58] Richer versions of personalization there that that that third tier of personalization so today machine language gets hyped a lot and it gets hyped as a. Scot: [49:08] Way to improve product. Jason: [49:09] Recommendations which I would argue about recommendations have been machine learning learning days for 10 years, is easy to see in the future actual experiences change based on machine learning so as in. Scot: [49:26] I see you have a complicated product catalog and you have a tax on. Jason: [49:27] See you have a complicated product catalog and you have a taxonomy for the that catalog right what are the first categories you see in that drop down list is it women's apparel because you sell the most women's apparel. Scot: [49:41] Well would it be interesting for. Jason: [49:41] Well would it be interesting for men if men's apparel showed up higher than women's apparel. Scot: [49:47] If I know that. Jason: [49:48] I know that you're a plumber should the plumbing taxonomy show up it. Scot: [49:54] Home Depot with more prevalent than the carpenter. Jason: [49:55] People with more prevalent than the carpentry products at Home Depot until we're starting to see, personalization extend beyond the. Scot: [50:05] And Beyond those those basic recommendations and in many cases. Jason: [50:07] Emendations and in many cases the the the latest versions of machine learning, can not only improve the personalization they can actually make suggestions or give hypotheses for what should be personalized. Scot: [50:23] To have the most meaning. Jason: [50:24] People change so supposed. Scot: [50:26] Having aux. Jason: [50:27] Next person say oh I saw our competitors are personalizing this thing that we're not maybe we should test that, you can actually have if you have a lot of traffic on your site you can start we're starting to be able to use artificial intelligence to suggest what kinds of personalization would most improve our customer experience which is, kind of cool science fiction. Scot: [50:46] Personalized personalization rametta. Jason: [50:48] Exactly another big one for most customers that have a big product catalog and don't argue like this this could have the most pronounced affected Amazon is. [51:01] So today when you go to a retailer with a big catalog and you type in a search term and I type in a search term we're going to get the exact same result, but if you were I go to Google and both type in a search term in a Google we'll get wild a different results, based on what we've typed in the past and what we clicked on and where we live and all the information Google knows about us and so it only stands to reason that if search is an important Discovery tool, we ought to be adopting that sort of Google style approach and personalizing search based on all the things we know about and so, we're now just starting to see the first generation of of search engines that that have that kind of AI based personalization built in. [51:44] The, like moving away from the experience as a little bit to think about other ways that personalization is starting to change is what if I personalized the delivery or personalized The Shipping schedule I'm right so one interesting, Amazon has a Panton on predictive shipping meaning send stuff to you before you asked for it, to surprise and Delight you and if they're wrong and you don't want it you just don't pay for it right and an even simpler, if you live in a big Condo building maybe I should put the hundred products that your condo buildings most likely to buy in the basement of that Condo building, to feel out of the microfilament Center in your basement instead of having to ship it to you so we're starting to see personalization of the supply chain which to me is pretty interesting. Scot: [52:35] Or a staging an Amazon Locker and then when you order it just do it gets downstairs already a scope. Jason: [52:44] Of course it like I would put all the auto replenishment experiences like. Scot: [52:48] When the Keurig coffee maker knows you use your last K-Cup or you're about to use your ask a cop. Jason: [52:49] When the Keurig coffee maker knows you use your last K-Cup or you're about to use your last K-Cup and could order more more coffee pods for you or when you know Walmart sees how much peanut butter you buy in a month and they know when the ship you knew peanut butter like. Scot: [53:04] Those kinds of things to me are open. Jason: [53:04] Seems to me you're a particularly interesting version of personalization, we're starting to see a lot more personalization in even what products people carry so to me like Stitch fix is a. Scot: [53:15] Give me like Stitch fix is a particularly good example of this where they're using what they learn about their customers. Jason: [53:17] Sample of this where they're using what they learn about their customers to decide what products to carry and Merchandising on the site right in, has a a version of this in essentially their hands off the wheel approach and instead of having a bunch of merchants and buyers deciding what people might want, save a bunch of data scientist that are personalizing the product catalog based on on the actual Behavior they're so they're seeing in their Echo CS, I'm there other retailers that are doing that Adore Me Is You know a woman's brand that uses a lot of data to to improve their product offering. Scot: [53:58] Begin again at the moment but some interesting Partnerships between technology companies in. Jason: [54:00] Partnerships between technology companies in traditional brands with their designing new products based. Scot: [54:04] New products Based on data. Jason: [54:07] Nai so there's this Shinola partnership with Market sites where where they're using AI to tell Shinola what new products to make him. Scot: [54:17] Brand on Tommy Hilfiger has. Jason: [54:18] Tommy Hilfiger has a partnership with IBM in the fashion institute to make new products based on. Scot: [54:24] New products based on personalization. Jason: [54:27] Mission data instead of the intuition of a of a product designer or Merchant said to me that's an interesting area. Scot: [54:33] Sing area that the. Jason: [54:34] The future is getting going to. Scot: [54:36] The biggest area. Jason: [54:38] They were moving to is forget personalized. Scot: [54:39] Please forget personalizing the experience less personalized the products right inside the simplest version of this is. Jason: [54:50] Figurations we used to. Scot: [54:51] Make the decision about what config. Jason: [54:53] Integration of customer could buy and free bundle them for. Scot: [54:56] So if you bought the original Apple watch Apple decided which. Jason: [55:01] Which band went with which color why. Scot: [55:03] But today if you want to buy. Jason: [55:04] Hey if you want to buy a gen is a Gen 5. Scot: [55:07] A series 535i. Jason: [55:07] Series 5 Apple watch you're getting the Apple Watch Studio experience we're essentially a person will show you the whole assortment of bands cases and let you do custom bundle. Scot: [55:22] Any can figure any. Jason: [55:23] Football formation that makes sense for you. Scot: [55:26] We're starting to see a lot of what I talk. Jason: [55:29] All creation where brand sell a product that's pre-manufactured. Scot: [55:31] But then they do some kind of. Jason: [55:34] Embellishment or customization. Scot: [55:37] At the point of purchase so that's why. Jason: [55:38] I purchased so that's like the Levi's Custom Tailor Shop that they don't embroider your jeans or so custom patches on your clothes. Scot: [55:45] Put on your clothes. Jason: [55:47] The more you need just to you Ralph Lauren has a similar experience, he will let you design and create your own shoes arafah is a mens bicycle. Scot: [55:58] Old company that it has some. Jason: [55:59] It has some personalization options a little Eliza there. Scot: [56:03] There's an increasing amount of. Jason: [56:04] Increasing amount of places where I can invest in bellush the base model with with unique things that make it personal just to me, and to me that's an interim step increasingly there. Scot: [56:15] Make the product from. Jason: [56:16] The product from scratch, just for you and I enjoy the moment apparel is really where this is being sort of glad so if you go to the Boston version. Scot: [56:26] A version of minutes. Jason: [56:27] Supply they actually have a computer weaving machine in the store that makes custom SmartWool Blazers for for customers based on their unique criteria, Adidas has made a sweaters on demand for customers and then there's a whole set of apparel companies that like use the phone to measure you the camera on the phone to measure you and then make custom products to order so that's mtailor proper cloth or red thread or unspun you know even things like indochino are really sort of, build-to-order model where you can you can have a significant degree of personalization, I'm so that that is somewhat interesting in the end just like with the coke the the data-driven merch, instead of having the customer decide what would be cool what if we use technology and the customers data to anticipate what a personalized product was that Scott would want so, there their initiatives like H&M partnering with zzz me, to create personalized fashion for customers based on unique things they know about that customer and there's a bunch of them a brands that are are personalizing fit for exam. Scot: [57:43] They don't have seen talk is Doug Mack at Fanatics I think he said something like 60 70 80% of their products have some kind of customization and that's just like you know you would think people just buy the Jersey whatever but apparently people love to put, their name on it or whatever. Jason: [57:59] And if you think about it that's such a huge win for the retailer write you a couple things happen returns are a huge problem in e-commerce and personalized Prada, a Chihuahua return rate that great, it's easier to not offer returns when a product has been personalized but even when you do there's a thing called the endowment effect like if it's something has your name on it you're less likely to send it back then and then, it feels like a generic object I would also argue that it's a potential mode against a big marketplaces like Amazon so you know one of the, great at yet is personalized product and I would argue in life are Amazon's biggest competitive Advantage they have a number of them but the biggest one is they have, best most robust distribution system in the world, a lot of that Advantage goes away when the product has to be made or personalized before it shipped to. Scot: [58:59] Yeah definitely one of the few areas you put on that's not an Amazon core competencies gives you a little seem to compete with me. Jason: [59:05] And I like like most things I probably wouldn't Bank on that being a forever, but right right now there's an area of opportunity there so we're coming up on time but just to sort of rap, the things to me that are most important when you're thinking about getting serious about personalization is this whole notion, try to achieve personalization optimized for relevancy like optimized for a better customer experience that has a higher custom customer lifetime value, focus on those outcomes not the specific tactics and if you're going to do one thing right now. Scot: [59:45] Even though you may not. Jason: [59:45] Even though you may not be ready to to make it big investments in new personalization tools or dramatically different customer experiences is invest a little bit of time and, in updating your data governance policies and making sure that you're doing the right disclosures when you collect information because I'm so many more of our experiences 2 years down the road are going to be data powered and it would just be a shame, you don't have access to the next two years of your customer data because you didn't collect it in the right way so that's a really low cost mistake that you can avoid right now. Scot: [1:00:19] Is there a, is there a set of best practices we can point people do or anything out there on what do you collect should I ask people their gender should ask them their age should I and then how do I you know how do I make sure that I'm getting data that I can keep for the long term. Jason: [1:00:34] So I mean a couple of. Scot: [1:00:35] I mean a couple of things. Jason: [1:00:37] The first thing is you mostly want to get your disclosures right like when you collect the data when you. Scot: [1:00:41] Like the data when you ask the customer for. Jason: [1:00:43] Verde. Most of the the newer privacy policies and customer protections. Scot: [1:00:49] Really center around. Jason: [1:00:50] Really center around fully disclosing to the customer how you're going to use something so in the old world, Sprint email address and you didn't necessarily have to tell them how you were going to use that email address today, probably have to tell them that if they give you the email address you're going to use it to send marketing emails to them but you're also going to use it as an. Scot: [1:01:13] As unique identifier to. Jason: [1:01:13] Fire to identify that customer when they come to you in the future when I click on those filters on a search, by certain attributes in the old days you just clicked on those filters and the assortment Nero, today you probably want a disclosure at the bottom of that box saying I'm going to collect the attributes that are important to you and I may use those for future personalization so just getting the disclosure rate is, a a huge. Scot: [1:01:45] Elements of a. Jason: [1:01:45] Picture of a a best practice that you should be thinking about in terms of data governance, and with that I think it's happen again we have Perfectly Used up our a lot of time but if this is wedded your whistle about personalization then we, job and we love to continue the conversation on Twitter or Facebook so feel free to go there as always if this deep dive was beneficial for you, we sure would appreciate it if you'd go on iTunes and give us that five star review. Scot: [1:02:14] Thanks Jason I know I learned a ton and hopefully listeners did as well. Jason: [1:02:18] I appreciate it's got until next time happy commercing.